What does the JP trade tell us? ( If it happens!!)

[WrigleyinEngland]

I only leave this forum for some sleep and work and it all kicks off, sure sucks being in england!!.

 

Anyway having read all the stuff on this proposed trade i think the biggest message JH is trying to send out is to Furcal and his agent. We will get on with building a team and not let you dictate how this off season turns out for us. In my opinion Walker is gone as is patterson. This leaves us in a tricky position if we dont land furcal that would leave us with Niefi at 2nd + 2 rookies on the team and a severe power shortage.

 

I would like to see the following happen if we land JP. Either sign furcal immedietely and then concentrate on pitching and RF or name Cedeno as SS bat Matt Murton 2nd ( His OBP behind JP would work) and then throw whatever it takes to get a stud bat in RF. By this i mean either offer giles the money he wants or do whatever it takes to get an Abreu or Dunn. My whatever it takes would include absolutely anyone in the minor league system including Pie.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

[mg420]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

[Derwood]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

[Wheelimus]

It's an interesting aquisition if it goes through, you know, do we really still NEED Rafeal Furcal if we pull this deal off? Not that I'll complain with having two "legit" leadoff guys at the top of the order, but I've always liked, in the 2nd hole, to just have a quality hitter. You know, leadoff guy slaps his way on base, ideally steals 2nd, your 2 hole hitter knocks him in, gets himself on base, and hopefully is waiting patiently on 1st for the bombers to slam him in.

 

It all comes down to what we do in right field I suppose. If you land Pierre, that of course makes Corey Patterson redundent (unless he's our starting right fielder :evil: ), so you could probably package him up for our new starting right fielder, or maybe an arm for the pen.

 

Hell, if we get Pierre, I'd go straight to Brian Giles and just say "look, we want him for 3 years...what's the $?".

 

Pierre

Walker

Lee

Giles

Ramirez

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

I'll take it...

 

Actually, better go ahead and sign Furcal, or that would be Neifi in the 8 hole :?

[Wheelimus]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

Hehe, better to try that than depend on "we gots us some long bombers, that'll work out for us!" for ANOTHER season :lol:

[soapy]

If the Cubs acquire Pierre, it only "solves" the leadoff position for one year. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that Pierre is a rental until Pie is ready. Pie is NOT a leadoff hitter. Therefore, I think Hendry will still go after Furcal.

 

I hope the Pierre thing doesn't go through and Furcal is the leadoff hitter instead. Then hopefully Hendry targets someone like Wilkerson or Bradley instead of Pierre. I'm also not completely opposed to moving Cedeno if he is part of a package that nets a big bat (assuming that means Walker would stay).

 

Furcal

Walker

Lee

RF acquired in trade (Floyd?)

Ramirez

Bradley

Murton

Barrett

[TB_11]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

[nick23]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

[mg420]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

 

i think many successful major leauge players & managers would dispute this point with you. i would also consider an obp of .370 an appealing quality for a leadoff man btw (and apparently so do the cubs).

[nick23]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

[Hector Villanuevas Pants]

The Cubs have always valued speed at the top of the line-up (see the Patterson experiment). It's OBP that they've lacked. I don't think you can credit the targeting of Pierre to the Sox winning the WS. I think it has more to do with the disaster that was the 1-2 spots in the line-up last season.

[Balsa]

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

 

God I would hate to have timely hitting and speed.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

The Boston Red Sox aren't even in that situation without all the OBP and power in their lineup. We're going after players who aren't really great at either, and potentially terrible at both. Pierre is just as likely to get caught in that 9th inning situation, but coming up with obscure hypotheticals doesn't change the fact that stolen bases as a whole have significantly less value than other traits we should be targeting.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

 

God I would hate to have timely hitting and speed.

 

Good luck finding it, since timely hitting is about as easy to get as a leprechaun.

[mg420]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

The Boston Red Sox aren't even in that situation without all the OBP and power in their lineup. We're going after players who aren't really great at either, and potentially terrible at both. Pierre is just as likely to get caught in that 9th inning situation, but coming up with obscure hypotheticals doesn't change the fact that stolen bases as a whole have significantly less value than other traits we should be targeting.

 

bill james on stealing bases:

 

http://journals.aol.com/georgecoztanza/CoztanzasCommentarty/entries/393

[goonys evil twin]

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

Making personel decisions based on theoretical specific individual future plays is an absolutely terrible way to go about building a team.

 

You have to get to a position for that stolen base to be meaningful to justify going after a guy strictly for that. Boston had an amazing offense, so they were fine adding a strict stolen base specialist (who by the way was a bench player, not a multi-million dollar starter). If you want that 1 stolen base in the 9th inning in September, I'd be far more interested in calling up Dwaine Bacon for the bench, paying him $300,000 per year and seeing him do his thing, then trading away talent and spending big money on a marginal player when such huge holes are still very evident.

 

And how the hell can you possibly assume that while he might get thrown out in May, he'll clearly be safe in September? Pierre is neither an OBP specialist (.326 in 2005, .355 career) or stolen base god. He's not a guarantee for anything. With Giles, you're guaranteed huge OBP, and at the very least, solid power.

[nick23]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

I hate to say it but I think the Sox winning the World Series pushed Hendry to acquire speed this offseason, so he can 'Southside' the offense. #-o

Why is speed so bad? The stolen base, when attempted at the right time, is a valuable weapon.

 

The stolen base isn't all that valuable. Especially when you acquire players who steal bases at borderline acceptable rates, and have very few appealing qualities outside of speed.

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

The Boston Red Sox aren't even in that situation without all the OBP and power in their lineup. We're going after players who aren't really great at either, and potentially terrible at both. Pierre is just as likely to get caught in that 9th inning situation, but coming up with obscure hypotheticals doesn't change the fact that stolen bases as a whole have significantly less value than other traits we should be targeting.

Actually, he's not just as likely to get thrown out in that situation. But my original post was just to ask the question of why is speed a bad thing to have. If used in the right situations, it's actually very valuable. I don't think Hendry is targeting Pierre because he can steal bases. I think Hendry is targeting a guy that just 2 years ago was one of the premier lead off hitters in the game. I happen to agree with Hendry and think that Pierre is going to bounce back this year and post solid lead off numbers. The fact that he can get Pierre at a discount is just an added bonus.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

bill james on stealing bases:

 

http://journals.aol.com/georgecoztanza/CoztanzasCommentarty/entries/393

 

I'm pretty sure that's not Bill James.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think it means he likes guys who can catch the ball.

 

and guys who can steal 50+ bases with a potential .370+ obp.

 

but more importantly, guys who can catch the ball. Just like dem White Sox.

 

See, the Sox showed Hendry that if you score less runs but appear to be "scrappy", you'll win the whole shebang.

 

SMARTBALL~!

[mg420]

Tell that to the Boston Red Sox and Dave Roberts. I could care less if Pierre gets thrown out trying to steal in the 4th inning of a game against the Pirates in May. I care about the base he'll potentially steal in the 9th inning of a 1 run game in September when we're fighting for the playoffs.

 

Making personel decisions based on theoretical specific individual future plays is an absolutely terrible way to go about building a team.

 

You have to get to a position for that stolen base to be meaningful to justify going after a guy strictly for that. Boston had an amazing offense, so they were fine adding a strict stolen base specialist (who by the way was a bench player, not a multi-million dollar starter). If you want that 1 stolen base in the 9th inning in September, I'd be far more interested in calling up Dwaine Bacon for the bench, paying him $300,000 per year and seeing him do his thing, then trading away talent and spending big money on a marginal player when such huge holes are still very evident.

 

And how the hell can you possibly assume that while he might get thrown out in May, he'll clearly be safe in September? Pierre is neither an OBP specialist (.326 in 2005, .355 career) or stolen base god. He's not a guarantee for anything. With Giles, you're guaranteed huge OBP, and at the very least, solid power.

 

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

bill james on stealing bases:

 

http://journals.aol.com/georgecoztanza/CoztanzasCommentarty/entries/393

 

I'm pretty sure that's not Bill James.

 

Hah, not even close.

[goonys evil twin]

whos to say that giles even WANTS to play for the cubs? even if he does & they sign him, he wont hit leadoff or play cf.

 

Leadoff and CF was not the only problem. RF was as big a hole as CF last year. Pierre is a mediocre CF, Furcal is a 2nd tier SS, Giles is an outstanding RF.

 

I don't want to hear about the "doesn't want to play here" BS. Players will play where they are offered money. You don't know if Giles wants to come here unless you try and convince him to come here. And if you're turned down early, don't just give up. That can't be your excuse not to go for the best.

[mg420]

bill james on stealing bases:

 

http://journals.aol.com/georgecoztanza/CoztanzasCommentarty/entries/393

 

I'm pretty sure that's not Bill James.

 

maybe you're right. it is a confusing site. my bad.