Another Idiotic Decision by NCAA

[OleMissCub]

 

A white guy who is a Native American studies major and has respect for Native American culture. All of this offending a tribe that no longer exists apparently.

 

Since everyone else is doing it

 

Self Hating White Guy: "Humbug, you see. As a white guy he has no right to like Native American culture and wish to respect it. You see, the 'white man' is the reason why the Illini don't exist anymore. He shouldn't be able to honor them at all, never, because HE and his kind are the reason they are all dead. White people suck. White people are the only race that has ever done wrong. If it weren't for the white man, the world would be a happy place. We would all sing and dance and live in peace. You see, Indians only invented tomahawks as a response to the white man landing on their shores. You see, they never had a reason to be violent until the white man showed up"

 

Rational person: "What about that pile of skulls that I personally found on a dig into Chickisaw mounds from around 1300AD that all had holes in the backs of their skulls where they had been executed with tomahawks, some were even children"

 

SHWG: "The white man taught them that"

 

RP: "White people weren't in North America in 1300."

 

SHWG: "Well, the white man must have trasmnitted violence to the Indians through ESP or something. We've done them such terrible wrongs in the past that we can never be forgiven for. The ancestors of those white men should be held accountable for the sins of their Great Great great great grandfathers and should always be held responsible for those sins."

 

RP: "So by that rationale I can hold Germans accountable because they pushed my ancestors off mainland Europe and onto Ireland?"

 

SHWG: "No! It doesn't work like that"

 

RP: "Why not?"

 

SHWG: "I don't know"

[treebird]

if native americans are so bad why do you want to honor them

 

i also don't think you should refer to me as self-hating, i kind of think of that as a personal attack, or at least a personal statement about me which is not true.

[OleMissCub]

if native americans are so bad why do you want to honor them

 

i also don't think you should refer to me as self-hating, i kind of think of that as a personal attack, or at least a personal statement about me which is not true.

 

ah, I see. But it's ok for you to insuate that I am somehow some insensitive bigot?

[OleMissCub]

if native americans are so bad why do you want to honor them

 

I definitely don't think Native Americans are any better or worse than anyone in history. However, unlike most good liberals, I don't think them somehow "noble" I minored in Archaeology so I spent nearly 100 percent of my digs on Native American sites and while I gained a great deal of respect for their intelligence and culture, I also saw how brutal of a people they could be. They would put GITMO to shame.

[treebird]

if native americans are so bad why do you want to honor them

 

i also don't think you should refer to me as self-hating, i kind of think of that as a personal attack, or at least a personal statement about me which is not true.

 

ah, I see. But it's ok for you to insuate that I am somehow some insensitive bigot?

 

i dont know that i did that. if i did, it was likely unintentional or an overreaction on my part and i apologize either way.

[treebird]

if native americans are so bad why do you want to honor them

 

I definitely don't think Native Americans are any better or worse than anyone in history. However, unlike most good liberals, I don't think them somehow "noble" I minored in Archaeology so I spent nearly 100 percent of my digs on Native American sites and while I gained a great deal of respect for their intelligence and culture, I also saw how brutal of a people they could be. They would put GITMO to shame.

 

im pretty sure it's not fair to compare the human rights abuses that took place in societies separated by centuries. ill agree that the native americans were not peaceful flower children or anything close to it, but the gitmo reference seems out of place.

 

im getting kind of tired of talking about this/arguing with you. name some bands you like and then i will do the same and then we can learn how we are similar.

[OleMissCub]

 

im getting kind of tired of talking about this/arguing with you. name some bands you like and then i will do the same and then we can learn how we are similar.

 

fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can handle that very well.

 

I like Radiohead, The Beatles, Tool, System of a Down, Led Zep, and Hans Zimmer soundtracks (Gladiator, Last Samurai, The Thin Red Line)

[treebird]

 

im getting kind of tired of talking about this/arguing with you. name some bands you like and then i will do the same and then we can learn how we are similar.

 

fine, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I can handle that very well.

 

I like Radiohead, The Beatles, Tool, System of a Down, Led Zep, and Hans Zimmer soundtracks (Gladiator, Last Samurai, The Thin Red Line)

 

I'm not huge on Radiohead, but all the others are awesome. I actually own two of those Hans Zimmer soundtracks. System of a Down always sells lots of records and is clearly pretty popular (including with me), but you hardly ever see people actually say they like them. Kinda weird.

[Balsa]

Goodness gracious alive! Here we go again. You attack them by saying they weren't named to be tributes then WHY the hell are they named such???? No one has given a good answer. Other than Treebeard's brilliant yet farfetched idea about a "trophy prize" i've heard zero.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

I attend U of I, and the Chief is huge profits. Especially since he came under attack strangely enough. People are practically running out to the store to buy stuff with his face on it so they can parade around campus in it.

 

"That's showing those offended Indians!"

 

In my mind its remarkably similar to Germans naming a team the Auschwitz Jews. It's a tribute. They died there.

 

EDIT: And yeah it's really stupid that the NCAA is only during tournaments. Wusses.

[dougdescenzo]

ill agree that the native americans were not peaceful flower children

 

Not trying to start the argument back up but has anyone ever heard an Indian refer to himself as a Native American? OleMiss it seems like you've spent alot of time around Indians have you heard an Indian refer to themselves as Native American?

[stuy119]

OK, here's some background on the FSU situation:

 

1. The Seminole Indians are comprised mainly of two tribes, those in Florida and in Oklahoma. The Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma is the group that has constantly raised a stink over the whole issue of Native American mascots. They were the sect that fled (like chickens, a part of their history they ignore as much as possible), leaving behind the other sect to fight the "white men" back in the 1800's. The reason FSU adopted the Seminole Tribe as it's mascot was for the fact of their spirit and will to never give in. Coincidentally, this is the spirit TK is adopting in the fight against the NCAA.

 

2. If the NCAA has sooooo much to say about this issue, maybe they should take a little trip down to Tallahassee and drive around the city for a while. I'm sure they would see the streets (named by the local government over the past 100+ years), such as Micosukee Rd, Osceola Dr, Seminole Way, etc. and notice there aren't any protestors over the names of the streets, which people build houses on and use everyday. Maybe they can come through the panhandle, visiting towns such as Chattahoochee and Choctaw before coming to Tally. I'm sure they'll stay in the the suburb of Killearn Acres for the evening, as it's a nice country club - and I think there are some Irish living in the area. :roll:

 

3. Jeb has finally decided to support a cause that is worthwhile on this one, and it could be a serious tipping point. His stance is to uphold any use of a name/symbol/mascot should it be approved by the group. That would be interesting should FSU decide to take this to the courts and use what leverage they can against the NCAA.

 

4. Before football games (and only football games, because it would be inconvenient to protest other sports), there is always a group of 2-3 Native Americans protesting outside of Doak Campbell Stadium. While this is constantly covered, it is never noted that within 200 feet, there is a group of minimally 50-100 Seminole Indians tailgaiting and handing out information literature on the Seminole Tribe.

 

5. FSU has ponied up more than a few million (not sure of the exact total) since 1990 for academic scholarships for use at any State of Florida university for Native Americans. Not too shabby, but again, no mention of this ever gets out.

 

6. The Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma has "offered" to let go of the issue and support the use of the Seminole symbol, but only if FSU is willing to donate percentages of profits and set up scholarships specifically for the OK Seminoles - and only the OK Seminoles. Not too sure, but last I checked this amounted to extortion.

 

7. Brand is an absolute idiot, on a level similar to W. An Uncle of mine ran a portion of the Indiana University Education Department program, and said that nothing of value ever came from the man. He was politically motivated, and always made sure to put those who could help his causes before those of the students. His lack of focus on education was a reason he was so quick to accept the position at the NCAA, as he was rumored to be ousted at IU.

 

8. On a less serious note, any idea why this can be such a prickly issue, yet they can't figure out a decent way to have a college football playoff? You would think they would work on things like improving graduation rates, granting additional need-based scholarships, keeping athletes from missing as many days of class as they do, etc. before tackling an issue that really isn't thought of.

 

9. Also, as someone of Irish decent now living in Chicago, I will make sure that I do everything in my power to protest every Notre Lame event possible, as I'm offended by being lumped in with a group of militant countrymen.

 

Yup, that's where I stand.

[adamb0719]

Not trying to start the argument back up but has anyone ever heard an Indian refer to himself as a Native American?

 

Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act of 1990.- an act which was requested by Native Americans to protect the artifacts of their graves (along with many other things)

 

 

Illinois Native American Bar Association (INABA)- group of Native Americans that brought up a lawsuit against U of I.

 

I have never personally heard an Indian call himself Native American but alot of the groups who bring up numerous grievances (i.e. mascots) use the title of Native American in their name.

[OleMissCub]

ill agree that the native americans were not peaceful flower children

 

Not trying to start the argument back up but has anyone ever heard an Indian refer to himself as a Native American? OleMiss it seems like you've spent alot of time around Indians have you heard an Indian refer to themselves as Native American?

 

the ones that I know refer to themselves by their tribe. "I'm Choctaw" etc. I know when I visited Montana, the Sioux there called themselves "Lakota", the Indian name for Sioux.

 

I imagine it's kind of the same thing with blacks. I come from the only state in the union that has more blacks than whites so I have a good many black friends and I went to a high school with a majority of blacks, and I know very few that call themselves "African-American"

[adamb0719]

I just got this quote from an ND message board I read. This is one point of view I have never heard about this whole thing (and I feel is quite a stretch)

 

"The whole reason behind it is that it harms our children. It's different if its a city, school or street. A sports team creates a division because one team wins and one team loses." --Cindy La Marr (member of the steering committee of Alliance Against Racial Mascots)

 

Also had this quote regarding Central Michigan:

Joseph Sowmick, spokesman for the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, said Central Michigan has a "rich relationship" with the tribe that "cannot be determined by an outside entity without contacting the institution and the government involved. Any arbitrary decision made from an outside source regarding university-tribal relations is not acceptable and certainly the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe would welcome a dialogue to discuss this further."

[OleMissCub]

 

Also had this quote regarding Central Michigan:

Joseph Sowmick, spokesman for the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, said Central Michigan has a "rich relationship" with the tribe that "cannot be determined by an outside entity without contacting the institution and the government involved. Any arbitrary decision made from an outside source regarding university-tribal relations is not acceptable and certainly the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe would welcome a dialogue to discuss this further."

 

I would expect to see the same thing from the MS Band of Choctaw Indians about Mississippi College.

 

Perhaps this is the southerner and the libertarian in me, but I just wish the NCAA would back off of this and let the individual schools decide what is proper and what is not. If Native Americans have grievances against some schools that is one thing, but to punish all of them I think is not fair. This is like cutting off the head to try and cure the headache...it just doesn't work like that.

[adamb0719]

I just wish the NCAA would back off of this and let the individual schools decide what is proper and what is not. If Native Americans have grievances against some schools that is one thing, but to punish all of them I think is not fair. This is like cutting off the head to try and cure the headache...it just doesn't work like that.

 

I could not have said that any better.

 

I also just read that the North Dakota fighting Souix's logo was designed by a Native American artist, and SDSU is allowed to keep using Aztec since there were no Aztec tribes residing in America. Interesting.

[OleMissCub]

 

I also just read that the North Dakota fighting Souix's logo was designed by a Native American artist, and SDSU is allowed to keep using Aztec since there were no Aztec tribes residing in America. Interesting.

 

I don't know about that, Zambrano sure looks like Monteczuma to me! I've always thought he looked like an Aztec :-)

[stuy119]

And here's this from a Seminole Indian and FSU grad:

 

Hello All,

 

Just wanted to drop in my .02 on this issue and correct some info that's been posted on here. My name is Emily Osceola-Branch, FSU Alumni Class of 2003 & Seminole Tribal Member. The actions of the NCAA a few days ago disgust me. With so many other issues troubling college athletics the decision to outright ban the use of Native American imagery/mascots is ridiculous and misguided. I won't lie and say that I've never been embarassed or angered at the way my tribe has been depicted, mostly this stems from fellow fans at games who dress up in dime store "Injun" outfits and fake wigs, but I have always been proud of attending FSU and the way the University has handled it's relationship with the Seminole Tribe. I consider my graduation from FSU to be my greatest accomplishment. I was in attendance when the Seminole Tribal Council passed the resolution that supported FSU using my tribe as their symbol/mascot. I spent the day driving 4 hours to the middle of nowhere to attend the ceremony because I understood it's importance and wished to show my alma mater my support in any way I could. I have so many other things I want to say and share with everyone but right now my mind is busy with other issues I can't seem to put into words what else I want to say. I hope to get some kind of response from you all, I'm a regular lurker on this board and I've always been entertained by the discussions here so if anyone has a question feel free to ask, hopefully I'll be able to respond. Thanks for your time.

 

PS- The were some items posted on here that I wanted to correct so just bear with me.

-James Billie is not the Chief, never was. That was just a cutesy little title he adopted. We might have had Chiefs in the past but our current leadership goes under the title Chairman, he's an elected official on our Tribal Council. The current chairman is Mitchell Cypress.

-On an older post I stated that FSU does not offer scholarships to Seminole Tribal members. Another poster on a different board pointed out the "Seminole Scholars" program. I didn't even know it existed so I was wrong about that but it was not a program I benefited from.

-Everyone should taken great joy in any comment on the issue from Mr. Max Osceola Jr. That man is one of the biggest UM fans I have ever met and he takes great enjoyment from our losing streak so when he has to say something nice about FSU believe me it pains him.

 

The NCAA is going to have quite a few problems getting this taken care of. I don't see this lasting, especially since it won't fully take effect until after the BCS bowls are completed in 2006. The first "meaningful" test will be March Madness next year.

[OleMissCub]

The most meaningful part of that girls letter was this

 

I was in attendance when the Seminole Tribal Council passed the resolution that supported FSU using my tribe as their symbol/mascot

 

If the tribe supports it then what is the problem. I know that the tribal council doesn't speak for everyone, but it should give everyone a good idea what the tribe thinks as a whole.

[adamb0719]

I think the NCAA got in a little over their heads on this one. This may be incorrect but to me it seems like they spent to much time listening to (and being influenced by) the people who were complaining and not enough time listening to those who agreed with and supported many of these schools. Just from what has been said by Seminole, Chippewa, and I believe Choctaw (not sure if they have said anything officially or if that is just OleMissCub's educated guess as to what their response will be); it sounds like for everyone who disagrees with the mascots there is someone who agrees. By someone I mean someone of Indian descent who's opinion counts a hell of a lot more than mine on this situation. I just feel that the NCAA got to involved in something they did not know enough about. Like I said, just my opinion and could be wrong; feel free to correct me.

[Careless]

ill agree that the native americans were not peaceful flower children

 

Not trying to start the argument back up but has anyone ever heard an Indian refer to himself as a Native American? OleMiss it seems like you've spent alot of time around Indians have you heard an Indian refer to themselves as Native American?

 

the ones that I know refer to themselves by their tribe. "I'm Choctaw" etc. I know when I visited Montana, the Sioux there called themselves "Lakota", the Indian name for Sioux.

 

I imagine it's kind of the same thing with blacks. I come from the only state in the union that has more blacks than whites so I have a good many black friends and I went to a high school with a majority of blacks, and I know very few that call themselves "African-American"

Well, that works if you're talking about an individual of known extraction, but what about if you're referring to a group of american aboriginals from different tribes? I'd bet on a hefty portion going with "native american"

[OleMissCub]

 

Well, that works if you're talking about an individual of known extraction, but what about if you're referring to a group of american aboriginals from different tribes? I'd bet on a hefty portion going with "native american"

 

Probably so, but I don't think we have a very large aboriginal population left in America who don't associate with a tribe and haven't done so for several hundred years. As colonists pushed West alot of smaller tribes consolidated into large ones especially by the time of Little Big Horn, Wounded Knee etc.

[dalgreen]

And here's this from a Seminole Indian and FSU grad:

 

Hello All,

 

Just wanted to drop in my .02 on this issue and correct some info that's been posted on here. My name is Emily Osceola-Branch, FSU Alumni Class of 2003 & Seminole Tribal Member. The actions of the NCAA a few days ago disgust me. With so many other issues troubling college athletics the decision to outright ban the use of Native American imagery/mascots is ridiculous and misguided. I won't lie and say that I've never been embarassed or angered at the way my tribe has been depicted, mostly this stems from fellow fans at games who dress up in dime store "Injun" outfits and fake wigs, but I have always been proud of attending FSU and the way the University has handled it's relationship with the Seminole Tribe. I consider my graduation from FSU to be my greatest accomplishment. I was in attendance when the Seminole Tribal Council passed the resolution that supported FSU using my tribe as their symbol/mascot. I spent the day driving 4 hours to the middle of nowhere to attend the ceremony because I understood it's importance and wished to show my alma mater my support in any way I could. I have so many other things I want to say and share with everyone but right now my mind is busy with other issues I can't seem to put into words what else I want to say. I hope to get some kind of response from you all, I'm a regular lurker on this board and I've always been entertained by the discussions here so if anyone has a question feel free to ask, hopefully I'll be able to respond. Thanks for your time.

 

PS- The were some items posted on here that I wanted to correct so just bear with me.

-James Billie is not the Chief, never was. That was just a cutesy little title he adopted. We might have had Chiefs in the past but our current leadership goes under the title Chairman, he's an elected official on our Tribal Council. The current chairman is Mitchell Cypress.

-On an older post I stated that FSU does not offer scholarships to Seminole Tribal members. Another poster on a different board pointed out the "Seminole Scholars" program. I didn't even know it existed so I was wrong about that but it was not a program I benefited from.

-Everyone should taken great joy in any comment on the issue from Mr. Max Osceola Jr. That man is one of the biggest UM fans I have ever met and he takes great enjoyment from our losing streak so when he has to say something nice about FSU believe me it pains him.

 

The NCAA is going to have quite a few problems getting this taken care of. I don't see this lasting, especially since it won't fully take effect until after the BCS bowls are completed in 2006. The first "meaningful" test will be March Madness next year.

 

What's the point of posting her letter? I'm sure you could find a Seminole who would write another letter stating how important this is to them and how they are offended by the use of the mascot. I don't think this issue is 90% for and 10% against using tribes as symbols. And I wish people would stop using the exception and treating it as the norm. The majority of schools never even asked permission nor invited the tribal council to meet regarding using Natives as logos/mascots. So I guess this makes the people for it right and institutions like St. Johns', Marquette, Miami (OH) and Stanford wrong for changing their names and mascots, huh?

[dalgreen]

The first "meaningful" test will be March Madness next year.

 

It's already been tested. The University of Illinois decided to not bring Chief Illiniwek to the Final Four last season for fear that it would "be a distraction". That's the word from my alma mater and not me. And Chief Illiniwek has not made an appearance at a post-season basketball game (other than home NIT games) since 1989.

[adamb0719]

The majority of schools never even asked permission nor invited the tribal council to meet regarding using Natives as logos/mascots.

 

Is this speculation or fact? I am not trying to start a whole new debate on this situation, just curious if this has been proven/discussed at any point.