At what point does a manager take responsibility?

[jyoung55]

Dusty will take blame the same day our President claims a mistake bigger than trading Sammy Sosa.

 

See also the day pigs fly, the day it snows in hell, etc.

[wastra]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

 

 

Honestly, if we're fielding a team with pitchers too old and immobile to at least ATTEMPT to field their position, we have MUCH bigger problems than that play last night.

[brinoch]

Here's where Dusty being a "player's manager" is a flaw, but not for the reasons cited above. I bet Dusty is madder than all of us about the performance last night. I bet Dusty lets those players know about it. Heck, I bet there is a team meeting where Dusty rips them all a new one. The Cubs had terrible defense, a terrible batting approach, terrible patience, and have just looked lethargic recently. Dusty knows this; he knows it's a reflection of him. The flaw is that we won't know about it. I bash Dusty when it's warranted. And, yes, the team played like crap last night. Dusty knows it, too.

 

The thing to watch? How they respond to the ass-kicking they most certainly will receive. We'll see tonight and through this weekend whether or not the Cubs have it within themselves to make the playoffs.

[LoneStarCubFan]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

 

 

Honestly, if we're fielding a team with pitchers too old and immobile to at least ATTEMPT to field their position, we have MUCH bigger problems than that play last night.

 

It's not that he's immobile, it's just that there's no way in hell he outruns Lofton, who is considerably faster AND closer to first base to begin with. IF Rem is a righty, he may beat him to the bag.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Remlinger DOES get over there, Lee flips him the ball and Lofton is more than likely safe because he beats Rem to the bag, putting runners on the corners with nobody out. So, in a way, this worked to the Cubs' advantage.

Edited August 4, 2005 by LoneStarCubFan

[JC]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

 

 

Honestly, if we're fielding a team with pitchers too old and immobile to at least ATTEMPT to field their position, we have MUCH bigger problems than that play last night.

 

It's not that he's immobile, it's just that there's no way in hell he outruns Lofton, who is considerably faster AND closer to first base to begin with. IF Rem is a righty, he may beat him to the bag.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Remlinger DOES get over there, Lee flips him the ball and Lofton is more than likely safe because he beats Rem to the bag, putting runners on the corners with nobody out.

 

Since when is 90 feet closer than 60ish feet?

[LoneStarCubFan]

I can't get too mad at Remlinger for not covering first last night. No way in hell he beats Lofton to the bag on that play even if he tries. A 39-year-old lefty falling towards third base when he releases the pitch does not beat Kenny Lofton in a foot race to first.

 

 

Honestly, if we're fielding a team with pitchers too old and immobile to at least ATTEMPT to field their position, we have MUCH bigger problems than that play last night.

 

It's not that he's immobile, it's just that there's no way in hell he outruns Lofton, who is considerably faster AND closer to first base to begin with. IF Rem is a righty, he may beat him to the bag.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Remlinger DOES get over there, Lee flips him the ball and Lofton is more than likely safe because he beats Rem to the bag, putting runners on the corners with nobody out.

 

Since when is 90 feet closer than 60ish feet?

 

Remlinger is on the third base side of the mound with his momentum moving away from first. Lofton is on the first base side of the plate with his momentum moving towards first. Three guesses on who wins that footrace.

[JC]

 

Since when is 90 feet closer than 60ish feet?

 

Remlinger is on the third base side of the mound with his momentum moving away from first. Lofton is on the first base side of the plate with his momentum moving towards first. Three guesses on who wins that footrace.

 

I'm not arguing that. I just take issue with your assertion that Lofton was closer to first than Remlinger. You said:

 

 

It's not that he's immobile, it's just that there's no way in hell he outruns Lofton, who is considerably faster AND closer to first base to begin with.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm curious on how people know that Baker hasn't punished a Cub player for not covering first? Yeah, whatever he's doing isn't working to get them over there but who here knows that Baker hasn't bothered to discipline them? I give Baker credit for not making this stuff public and I think that's why his players like him...not because he doesn't do anything.

[wastra]

There will always be times when a player beats a pitcher to the bag. But there should never EVER be a time the pitcher doesn't even make an attempt.

[LoneStarCubFan]

 

Since when is 90 feet closer than 60ish feet?

 

Remlinger is on the third base side of the mound with his momentum moving away from first. Lofton is on the first base side of the plate with his momentum moving towards first. Three guesses on who wins that footrace.

 

I'm not arguing that. I just take issue with your assertion that Lofton was closer to first than Remlinger. You said:

 

 

It's not that he's immobile, it's just that there's no way in hell he outruns Lofton, who is considerably faster AND closer to first base to begin with.

 

Lofton WAS closer to the bag than Remlinger.

[JC]

I'm curious on how people know that Baker hasn't punished a Cub player for not covering first? Yeah, whatever he's doing isn't working to get them over there but who here knows that Baker hasn't bothered to discipline them? I give Baker credit for not making this stuff public and I think that's why his players like him...not because he doesn't do anything.

 

I guess I have two comments. First, whatever he is doing it isn't working. More importantly, it hasn't worked for three years with respect to getting pitchers to adhere to fundamentals. In that time period, the staff has changed (rather dramatically). So, responsibility must fall on management. Second, my guess is that Baker isn't fining anybody. That doesn't seem to be his nature, likely prefering that the Kangeroo Court hands out such fines. In addition, that clubhouse is a sieve.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm curious on how people know that Baker hasn't punished a Cub player for not covering first? Yeah, whatever he's doing isn't working to get them over there but who here knows that Baker hasn't bothered to discipline them? I give Baker credit for not making this stuff public and I think that's why his players like him...not because he doesn't do anything.

 

I guess I have two comments. First, whatever he is doing it isn't working. More importantly, it hasn't worked for three years with respect to getting pitchers to adhere to fundamentals. In that time period, the staff has changed (rather dramatically). So, responsibility must fall on management. Second, my guess is that Baker isn't fining anybody. That doesn't seem to be his nature, likely prefering that the Kangeroo Court hands out such fines. In addition, that clubhouse is a sieve.

 

I never said what he was doing has worked. I have read a lot of speculation on what Baker does but it's my guess that no one knows what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Why do you feel the clubhouse is a sieve?

[wastra]

Actually, back to the original question of the thread-

 

I think Dusty has to take some flak for the "culture" of the team that I believe causes them to play unfocused baseball. He's instilled a culture of no-accountability on the team. when they fail down the stretch, he's pointing at TV announcers instead of the guys who keep making baserunning errors. When they struggle early, he's b*tching about fans booing instead of the guy who served up a 2-run homer in the bottom of the 9th. Instead of talking about our starting leadoff hitters who can't get on base, he talks about our backup leadoff hitter who wants to get a shot to play.

 

Instead of responding to the questions about our shortstop not taking walks, he points to the three or four games his timely hits have helped us win. Instead of addressing the fact that our starting left fielder has hit .240 for the bulk of the season, he talked about how our backup didn't have experience, and made excuses about "slumps" and "starts". Instead of taking actions to correct these problems (like benching guys or changing up the order...which would be an admonishment of those who aren't producing), he sticks with a known bad plan says he has no other options and talks about injuries and a long season and how we shouldn't focus on one loss.

 

Halfway through the first two weeks of the year, he's already starting 3 or 4 backups in one game- insinuating to fans and players that he doesn't expect to win that game, and his remarks to teh press are that "it's a long season, and I want the starters rested for the end" which implies winning the games early doesn't matter...which in and of itself de-values individual wins for the team. Now, with 6 weeks left, we suddenly find there aren't enough games left to make up the ground we're behind.

 

IMHO- All of this adds up to the fact that I believe that many of our players don't feel personally responsible for individual games we lose. there's always another reason- not their approach, or their decisions, but fans, injuries, day games, heat- whatever. They don't really feel that they HAVE to make changes because they don't feel that it's their fault that they're failing. It's just bad breaks and other people's fault or it's not that important because the season is so long.

 

(I'm not saying our players are stupid or selfish, just that I don't feel like they have taken ownership of their actions for the past 2-3 years).

[CubinNY]

Actually, back to the original question of the thread-

 

I think Dusty has to take some flak for the "culture" of the team that I believe causes them to play unfocused baseball. He's instilled a culture of no-accountability on the team. when they fail down the stretch, he's pointing at TV announcers instead of the guys who keep making baserunning errors. When they struggle early, he's b*tching about fans booing instead of the guy who served up a 2-run homer in the bottom of the 9th. Instead of talking about our starting leadoff hitters who can't get on base, he talks about our backup leadoff hitter who wants to get a shot to play.

 

Instead of responding to the questions about our shortstop not taking walks, he points to the three or four games his timely hits have helped us win. Instead of addressing the fact that our starting left fielder has hit .240 for the bulk of the season, he talked about how our backup didn't have experience, and made excuses about "slumps" and "starts". Instead of taking actions to correct these problems (like benching guys or changing up the order...which would be an admonishment of those who aren't producing), he sticks with a known bad plan says he has no other options and talks about injuries and a long season and how we shouldn't focus on one loss.

 

Halfway through the first two weeks of the year, he's already starting 3 or 4 backups in one game- insinuating to fans and players that he doesn't expect to win that game, and his remarks to teh press are that "it's a long season, and I want the starters rested for the end" which implies winning the games early doesn't matter...which in and of itself de-values individual wins for the team. Now, with 6 weeks left, we suddenly find there aren't enough games left to make up the ground we're behind.

 

IMHO- All of this adds up to the fact that I believe that many of our players don't feel personally responsible for individual games we lose. there's always another reason- not their approach, or their decisions, but fans, injuries, day games, heat- whatever. They don't really feel that they HAVE to make changes because they don't feel that it's their fault that they're failing. It's just bad breaks and other people's fault or it's not that important because the season is so long.

 

(I'm not saying our players are stupid or selfish, just that I don't feel like they have taken ownership of their actions for the past 2-3 years).

 

Right on wastra. It is not this game but a pattern of performance that has gone on for the better part of two seasons, regardless of the number on the back of the jersey.

[wastra]

Again, we've got the double whammy going on here, too.

 

-We've had a sub-par roster for 2-3 years (for a team meant to contend.) There hasn't been a single season in the past few where we came into a year without glaring question marks at multiple spots. Hendry can't keep getting passes when he puts together a patchwork bullpen EVERY YEAR and it fails, and then always has a one-dimensional team that swings at everything on the other side.

 

-We've poorly used the tools we HAVE had. We overused established pitchers, over-relied on unproven (not even proven at the minor league level) relievers and reclamation projects in the pen, underutilized talented younger position players, and routinely lacked key components to score runs. Then, we give them an "enabling" manager who refuses to hold players publicly accountable so he doesn't hurt their feelings, so players rarely step up and say "Hey, I'm not pulling my weight, I promise to do better."