"The Cubs traded the wrong firstbaseman"

[GaryWoods]

I believe the Hawk was correct.

 

I also think they kept the wrong 1B in 1983/84, when they kept Leon Durham over Bill Buckner and/or Carmelo Martinez. Nothing against the Bull; but he tailed off pretty quickly, and trading Durham at the time probably would have netted a better pitcher than either Eckersly or Sanderson.

 

And as to the Palmeiro/Sandberg controversy: I've heard both of those players heap praise on each other frequently over the years, and one of Palmeiro's kids is named after Sandberg. Given that, I have a hard time believing that Palmeiro was one of Cindy Sandberg's suitors. I think the rumors came to be from the timing of the trade, since her infidelities with Dave Martinez and others around the same time were common knowledge.

[dalgreen]

I remember Frey saying that he didn't think Palmeiro would ever develop power numbers, now why he didn't feel the same for Grace I don't know. I wish we could've gotten more for Palmeiro, but I was happy with Grace. Face it, the pitching sucked in the 90's for the Cubs moreso than the offense, in my opinion. Plus, somehow, Larry Himes would've done something stupid and Palmeiro would've left anyway. That's why I laugh at anyone who suggests any kind of curse on the Cubs. The only curse has been bad management making horrible decisions. The decline in the 90's began in 1987 (?) when the Trib made Dallas Green quit by trying to force him to be the field manager and give up the GM job. Idiots.

[goonys evil twin]

That's why I laugh at anyone who suggests any kind of curse on the Cubs. The only curse has been bad management making horrible decisions.

 

Yep.

[sonofsamiam]

I also think they kept the wrong 1B in 1983/84, when they kept Leon Durham over Bill Buckner and/or Carmelo Martinez. Nothing against the Bull; but he tailed off pretty quickly, and trading Durham at the time probably would have netted a better pitcher than either Eckersly or Sanderson.

 

I can't agree with this -- I think it was the right choice both then and in hindsight. Durham was pretty productive from '83-'87, while Buckner had one decent season in that time and Carmelo had a couple OK seasons amidst a sea of injuries. Meanwhile, Durham was the Cubs 2nd-best offensive weapon on the '84 team, and was still just 26.

[Wheelimus]

But, lets be honest here..

 

Difference in number of World Series won in that timespan with Raffy instead of Grace? 0

 

'Nuff said really. No year that Palmeiro's power would have really put us over the top. MAYBE you could argue in '98, but then you have to wonder "would he have even stayed around that long".

[sonofsamiam]

For those who think Ozzie is more deserving of the hall of fame:

 

I know they were different types of hitters, but a few back flips shouldn't get you into the hall of fame. Ozzie's numbers are really not that impressive. He was a great defensive player, but Gracie was no slouch in that department either. Ozzie's steals are nice, but that still doesn't make up for the career .262 average.

 

Grace - 2,445 hits - 173 HR - 1,146 RBI's - 70 SB - .303 avg - .383 obp - .442 slg

 

Smith - 2,460 hits - 28 HR - 793 RBI's - 580 SB - .262 avg - .337 obp - .328 slg

 

Keep in mind that Ozzie played 3 more years as well. My argument is that if Ozzie can get in, Grace belongs in as well.

 

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare the offensive numbers of the consensus best fielder of all-time at the most important fielding position to those of a first baseman. Just saying.

 

Also, despite some overlap in their careers, Grace played in a much more hitting-centric time.

 

Grace was great and all, but no Hall of Famer.

[mhuber92211]

Remember, Palmerio spent much of his "prime" years with Baltimore. How would we have felt now if we traded Grace to Texas and Kept Palmerio for 3 years then watched him walk, only to come back later. Kinda like we feel about Maddux. Sure we still love the guy and recognize that he was an excellent ballplayer for the Cubs but don't we wish we had him in the middle too? Imagine a core around Grace, Sandberg (never retiring in the middle), Maddux & Raffy. Add Dawson and Dunston in the mix and we have a pretty solid ball club.

[dime]

that might explain why Grace and Dawson supposedly came to blows during the 89 season?

 

palmeiro was adamant that he wanted to stay, he wanted to play left field.

[SouthSideRyan]

that might explain why Grace and Dawson supposedly came to blows during the 89 season?

 

palmeiro was adamant that he wanted to stay, he wanted to play left field.

 

I don't think Dawson ever got along with Grace. IMO because Dawson wasn't a jerk.

[dime]

great analysis. looks like everyone on the cubs from 88-00 (esp grace) was a jerk...except for andre dawson?

 

was dawson a jerk in every season except 89, then? I just want to know.

[bmkhawk]

Raffy was always pegged as a power hitter. He hit for power at MSU and in the minors.

 

I would check those minor league numbers again if I were you.

[bmkhawk]

My question to you my Cub brothern (and sisteren) is was the Hawk correct?

 

Absolutely. No question.

 

It would have been nice to see them play Raffy in lefty and keep both though.

 

That's what happens when a desperate franchise uses short-term thinking. That '89 season was followed by a decade of incompetence.

 

But these decisions aren't just made in a vacuum. There were obviously other considerations than pure baseball talent involved here.

 

By the way, I have my doubts as to the validity of that quote by Dawson.

[Backtobanks]

For those who think Ozzie is more deserving of the hall of fame:

 

I know they were different types of hitters, but a few back flips shouldn't get you into the hall of fame. Ozzie's numbers are really not that impressive. He was a great defensive player, but Gracie was no slouch in that department either. Ozzie's steals are nice, but that still doesn't make up for the career .262 average.

 

Grace - 2,445 hits - 173 HR - 1,146 RBI's - 70 SB - .303 avg - .383 obp - .442 slg

 

Smith - 2,460 hits - 28 HR - 793 RBI's - 580 SB - .262 avg - .337 obp - .328 slg

 

Keep in mind that Ozzie played 3 more years as well. My argument is that if Ozzie can get in, Grace belongs in as well.

 

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to compare the offensive numbers of the consensus best fielder of all-time at the most important fielding position to those of a first baseman. Just saying.

 

Also, despite some overlap in their careers, Grace played in a much more hitting-centric time.

 

Grace was great and all, but no Hall of Famer.

 

Yeah, I agree with you. You can't compare a middle infielder's numbers to a power position player's numbers. If you did, you might not have any 2B or SS in the HOF. During most of baseball's history, 2B & SS were manned by slick-fielding, mediocre-hitting players and they were appreciated for those skills that they brought to the game. 1B, 3B, LF, & RF are positions of power. I think Raffy is a 1st ballot HOF probability, even though he always seemed to fly under the radar as a great player.

[Backtobanks]

Phil Rogers suggests in today's Tribune that the trade of Raffy for Mitch Williams was worse than the Brock for Broglio trade. I disagree because Williams filled a need on the Cubs and helped them win a Division title. Also, the Cubs did have a pretty decent 1B in Mark Grace. Broglio never helped the Cubs while Brock went on to a HOF career. Of course, hindsight is always 20-20 and the Cubs would love to have had Brock & Raffy for their whole careers.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

we pretty much had to decide who to keep, raffy or grace. both put up nice numbers. it does suck that we didn't get much for raffy, but we didn't create a future hole on our major league club by trading him...we didn't fill a hole by trading him either. :?

[tspain]

We filled a hole trading Raffy for a closer and filled a hole trading Joe Carter for a #1 starter in Rick Sutcliffe, but I sure would have enjoyed watching both Raffy and Carter in Cubs uniforms for their careers.

[ZZ Thorn]

I think Raffy's a first ballot HOFer.

 

I don't know why consistency and longevity is so undervalued. I hear the same argument regarding Hank Aaron's greatness: he wasn't spectacular, he was just consistent.

 

Well consistency is hard to find. It's a virtue to play a long time at a top or near-top level. A lot of people can't do that, Raffy did. You make 3,000 hits and 500 home runs it shouldn't matter if it took you 10 years or 23 - that's HOF totals.

[bhogg]

I agree with ZZ.

 

Odd how you hear complaints about a player's longevity and you also hear people complain that players didn't play long enough.

 

People are never happy.

[erik316wttn]

I heard a story once that Sandberg forced managements hand after Raffy slept with Cindy Sandberg and said "it's either him or me".

 

Any truth to that, or did they just pick Grace over Raffy, and moved Raffy for a need?