Astros stole signs electronically in 2017

[Bryants Disco Ball]

 

if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

 

The only reason why I disagree is that if it didn't work very well or didn't help much at all, they wouldn't have kept doing it.

 

How can you say this with a straight face about anything in baseball just solely based on the fact that Albert Almora exists.

 

This.... is one of the best responses of all time.

[Cubswin11]

[minnesotacubsfan]

......

it's very difficult to overstate what an insane advantage it is to be essentially told the pitches

 

if you had time to sit and prepare for the pitch, sure, but the video seemed to show the batter getting the info just before the pitcher goes into windup. There's not a whole lotta time to adjust to a pitch at the point, and thats where it can be detrimental to the batter rather then helpful. The only caveat is if the batter is sitting change up the ENTIRE AB and is told when one is coming, THEN he has a huge advantage.

Wait, what? That's not how batting works. You don't sit there and prepare for a specific pitch for a few minutes. Knowing before release that a changeup is coming would be a huge advantage. It both allows you to sit fastball if you don't hear banging, then expect off speed once you hear it. You don't need 5 minutes to think it over.

 

:-k

 

thats almost precisely what I'm saying, well more or less

 

I just wish the Cubs did it more

[Sammy Sofa]

 

BY GAWD, HOW COULD HE HAVE POSSIBLY CRUSHED THAT MEATIEST OF MEATBALLS OTHERWISE.

[Cubswin11]

 

BY GAWD, HOW COULD HE HAVE POSSIBLY CRUSHED THAT MEATIEST OF MEATBALLS OTHERWISE.

Still was an 0-2 pitch and a breaking ball that he could’ve been extra geared up for if it was a meatball. Also adds to the proof of “trash can drum beat noise=breaking ball/off speed.”

[Sammy Sofa]

 

BY GAWD, HOW COULD HE HAVE POSSIBLY CRUSHED THAT MEATIEST OF MEATBALLS OTHERWISE.

Still was an 0-2 pitch and a breaking ball that he could’ve been extra geared up for if it was a meatball. Also adds to the proof of “trash can drum beat noise=breaking ball/off speed.”

 

Right, but this kind of epitomizes why this won't really be a thing. Besides that it's something pretty much everyone is doing or trying to do in one way or another, and how the numbers don't really play out to this being this amazing advantage for the Astros, that so much of it will come down to things like "LOOK AT THIS REALLY GOOD HITTER CRUSH A TERRIBLE PITCH...also there's the bang" isn't going to give it a whole lot of traction. Like, it would be far more effective to show normally mediocre or lousy hitters having spikes and doing unusual amounts of damage, which we won't get a lot of because it's the Astros and they're mostly really good with or without the "cheating." I guess it would be a Bonds-type of situation in terms of trying to find a line where they went from "just" a great team to freakishly great.

 

Plus MLB has no real motivation to do much of anything about it, and the other teams don't have any real motivation, or a leg to stand on, to make it a big deal.

[sneakypower]

 

BY GAWD, HOW COULD HE HAVE POSSIBLY CRUSHED THAT MEATIEST OF MEATBALLS OTHERWISE.

Still was an 0-2 pitch and a breaking ball that he could’ve been extra geared up for if it was a meatball. Also adds to the proof of “trash can drum beat noise=breaking ball/off speed.”

 

Right, but this kind of epitomizes why this won't really be a thing. Besides that it's something pretty much everyone is doing or trying to do in one way or another, and how the numbers don't really play out to this being this amazing advantage for the Astros, that so much of it will come down to things like "LOOK AT THIS REALLY GOOD HITTER CRUSH A TERRIBLE PITCH...also there's the bang" isn't going to give it a whole lot of traction. Like, it would be far more effective to show normally mediocre or lousy hitters having spikes and doing unusual amounts of damage, which we won't get a lot of because it's the Astros and they're mostly really good with or without the "cheating." I guess it would be a Bonds-type of situation in terms of trying to find a line where they went from "just" a great team to freakishly great.

 

Plus MLB has no real motivation to do much of anything about it, and the other teams don't have any real motivation, or a leg to stand on, to make it a big deal.

..are you trying to reenact the Chapelle Show jury selection sketch here

 

(Keith Law, 2016)

Bregman's power output this year has been way beyond anything I've ever forecasted for him, and even if you (or I) still want to argue that he's not going to have more than average power, how could you reasonably say he won't ever hit 20 homers in a full season when he has done this? He might be peak Dustin Pedroia with the bat...

oh yeah this guy hits 40 HR now

[minnesotacubsfan]

Still was an 0-2 pitch and a breaking ball that he could’ve been extra geared up for if it was a meatball. Also adds to the proof of “trash can drum beat noise=breaking ball/off speed.”

 

Right, but this kind of epitomizes why this won't really be a thing. Besides that it's something pretty much everyone is doing or trying to do in one way or another, and how the numbers don't really play out to this being this amazing advantage for the Astros, that so much of it will come down to things like "LOOK AT THIS REALLY GOOD HITTER CRUSH A TERRIBLE PITCH...also there's the bang" isn't going to give it a whole lot of traction. Like, it would be far more effective to show normally mediocre or lousy hitters having spikes and doing unusual amounts of damage, which we won't get a lot of because it's the Astros and they're mostly really good with or without the "cheating." I guess it would be a Bonds-type of situation in terms of trying to find a line where they went from "just" a great team to freakishly great.

 

Plus MLB has no real motivation to do much of anything about it, and the other teams don't have any real motivation, or a leg to stand on, to make it a big deal.

..are you trying to reenact the Chapelle Show jury selection sketch here

 

(Keith Law, 2016)

Bregman's power output this year has been way beyond anything I've ever forecasted for him, and even if you (or I) still want to argue that he's not going to have more than average power, how could you reasonably say he won't ever hit 20 homers in a full season when he has done this? He might be peak Dustin Pedroia with the bat...

oh yeah this guy hits 40 HR now

 

imagine if we could accurately tip pitches to Javy (+plus the juiced ball). Could he hit 60?

[squally1313]

You definitely don't want to know how many of those 41 home runs he hit at home vs how many he hit on the road, and if you find that out, you really won't want to know whether he played more games at home or on the road.

[Sammy Sofa]

Still was an 0-2 pitch and a breaking ball that he could’ve been extra geared up for if it was a meatball. Also adds to the proof of “trash can drum beat noise=breaking ball/off speed.”

 

Right, but this kind of epitomizes why this won't really be a thing. Besides that it's something pretty much everyone is doing or trying to do in one way or another, and how the numbers don't really play out to this being this amazing advantage for the Astros, that so much of it will come down to things like "LOOK AT THIS REALLY GOOD HITTER CRUSH A TERRIBLE PITCH...also there's the bang" isn't going to give it a whole lot of traction. Like, it would be far more effective to show normally mediocre or lousy hitters having spikes and doing unusual amounts of damage, which we won't get a lot of because it's the Astros and they're mostly really good with or without the "cheating." I guess it would be a Bonds-type of situation in terms of trying to find a line where they went from "just" a great team to freakishly great.

 

Plus MLB has no real motivation to do much of anything about it, and the other teams don't have any real motivation, or a leg to stand on, to make it a big deal.

..are you trying to reenact the Chapelle Show jury selection sketch here

 

(Keith Law, 2016)

Bregman's power output this year has been way beyond anything I've ever forecasted for him, and even if you (or I) still want to argue that he's not going to have more than average power, how could you reasonably say he won't ever hit 20 homers in a full season when he has done this? He might be peak Dustin Pedroia with the bat...

oh yeah this guy hits 40 HR now

 

because it's the Astros and they're mostly really good

 

I mean, sure, congratulations on totally showing me that the Astros aren't literally 100% stacked to a man. I take it all back.

[Sammy Sofa]

You definitely don't want to know how many of those 41 home runs he hit at home vs how many he hit on the road, and if you find that out, you really won't want to know whether he played more games at home or on the road.

 

horsefeathers, you beat me to it.

 

For those that don't want to do the work:

 

.278 .400 .523 .923 (16 HR) (345 PA)

.315 .446 .663 1.109 (25 HR) (345 PA)

[sneakypower]

the whole league has basically accused them of flagrantly cheating for a long time

there's clear and obvious evidence of them flagrantly cheating repeatedly

 

why is this seemingly so difficult for you

[Sammy Sofa]

the whole league has basically accused them of flagrantly cheating for a long time

there's clear and obvious evidence of them flagrantly cheating repeatedly

 

why is this seemingly so difficult for you

 

Wait, am I denying somewhere that they did it? Why is this so difficult for you:

 

Plus MLB has no real motivation to do much of anything about it, and the other teams don't have any real motivation, or a leg to stand on, to make it a big deal.

 

I can't believe we're talking about a pro baseball scandal and people are legit crowing like it MUST only be this one team.

 

And get outta here with this "whole league crap" out of a handful of salty players on Twitter.

[sneakypower]

a handful of salty players on Twitter

oh ok you're barely paying attention, nevermind then

[minnesotacubsfan]

a handful of salty players on Twitter

oh ok you're barely paying attention, nevermind then

 

I don't think you're paying attention to Sofas view: MLB doesn't have a ton of motivation to make it a big deal.

 

I'd agree because its not that there was/wasnt cheating, or that it vastly helped 1 team in the league (it likely helped, but not to the extent of propelling them to the WS win), its that it probably is very pervasive in the MLB, MiLB, and that the overall effect is likely very marginal.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd agree because its not that there was/wasnt cheating, or that it vastly helped 1 team in the league (it likely helped, but not to the extent of propelling them to the WS win), its that it probably is very pervasive in the MLB, MiLB, and that the overall effect is likely very marginal.

 

Pretty much. Like, I get a kick out of the "imagine if Bryant..." type of comments, as if the Cubs aren't also doing or have done this kind of horsefeathers (and aren't trying to figure out what the next hot cheat is) and he just can't hit those damn pitches. There's a huge amount of the schadenfreude out of this that feeds into people's need to think a team like that couldn't possibly be THAT good, and this is the iron clad vindication that proves they're not that good. Get outta here with that. If anything, it shows that cheating is one of the few things they're not good at.

 

And man, that anyone thinks MLB is going to come down hard in any way...what planet are all of you living on?

[sneakypower]

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC

Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

[minnesotacubsfan]

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC

Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

[Sammy Sofa]

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC

Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

Because people are very clearly arguing that this didn't only happen in the 2017 playoffs?

 

*Just saw I was beaten to that point.

[sneakypower]

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC

Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

it would be so categorically boneheaded to exploit such a clear advantage to that degree, it'd be unquestionably solved in short order

 

i mean common sense would be just utilizing it in certain leverage situations...or who knows, maybe they were like the Price is Right Perfect Bid guy just doing it every pitch and 200 loud trash can bangs every home game went largely unnoticed to all and it actually had no tangible benefit anyway

[soccer10k]

Astros at home, 2017: .279/.340/.472 .812 OPS, 121 wRC

Astros on road, 2017: .284/.351/.483, .834 OPS, 121 wRC

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

 

Doesn’t mean they do it every game or for an entire game when they do it. Maybe they only do it in close and late situations.

[Sammy Sofa]

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

it would be so categorically boneheaded to exploit such a clear advantage to that degree, it'd be unquestionably solved in short order

 

i mean common sense would be just utilizing it in leverage situations...or who knows, maybe they were like the Price is Right Perfect Bid guy just doing it every pitch and 200 loud trash can bangs every home game went largely unnoticed to all and it actually had no tangible benefit anyway

 

Literally nobody here is denying they cheated.

 

The point that in a game rife with cheating at all times, especially this specific cheat, they just got busted on their particular method of cheating. It's faulty, IMO, to assume that their brand of stealing signal cheating was significantly more effective than other teams' brands of stealing signal cheating, and it's especially faulty to think this is some exceptional case, and that MLB will do much of anything about it.

 

Seriously, what do you think should or is likely to happen?

[Cubswin11]

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

it would be so categorically boneheaded to exploit such a clear advantage to that degree, it'd be unquestionably solved in short order

 

i mean common sense would be just utilizing it in leverage situations...or who knows, maybe they were like the Price is Right Perfect Bid guy just doing it every pitch and 200 loud trash can bangs every home game went largely unnoticed to all and it actually had no tangible benefit anyway

 

Literally nobody here is denying they cheated.

 

The point that in a game rife with cheating at all times, especially this specific cheat, they just got busted on their particular method of cheating. It's faulty, IMO, to assume that their brand of stealing signal cheating was significantly more effective than other teams' brands of stealing signal cheating, and it's especially faulty to think this is some exceptional case, and that MLB will do much of anything about it.

I disagree with this. Do teams try and pick up signs/pitch tipping, sure. But they’re doing it when a guy gets on 2B or in pre-game video hoping to find something or a guy on the bench in game. I don’t think many, if any, teams have a camera fixed on a catcher’s signs with a closed circuit TV in the dugout to relay the info to the hitter every game. That’s just brazen and on another level and is somewhat backed by the stories we hear about people and players being shocked at the lengths they Astros have gone to cheat. All teams attempt to steal signs/signals (mostly “the right way”), I doubt many teams actually accomplish this more than a few times over the course of a year. The Astros presumably had the ability to do it for every home game at a level nobody does it at.

 

I don’t think they should be given some huge punishment. Take some picks away, fine the team and players who were doing it (if that can be proven), fire and/or potentially ban the team coaches/employees who carried it out and put in better protocols to make sure this level of cheating can’t happen again.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Cubswin11

[sneakypower]

The point that in a game rife with cheating at all times, especially this specific cheat, they just got busted on their particular method of cheating. It's faulty, IMO, to assume that their brand of stealing signal cheating was significantly more effective than other teams' brands of stealing signal cheating, and it's especially faulty to think this is some exceptional case, and that MLB will do much of anything about it.

 

Seriously, what do you think should or is likely to happen?

i already said they should be stripped of their title, if it's determined they exploited that advantage throughout the '17 postseason; this goes so far beyond garden-variety stealing signs that it's silly to make the comparison

 

i also don't think Manfred will do much to rectify it because throughout his direction he has maintained minimal control over the integrity of the sport that he governs

[minnesotacubsfan]

why are you suggesting/assuming that they were doing this on every pitch @Minute Maid Park the entire season

 

Astros team-wide postseason splits, 2017

home: 862 OPS

away: 632 OPS

 

 

the videos above showed games in the regular season.

 

Doesn’t mean they do it every game or for an entire game when they do it. Maybe they only do it in close and late situations.

 

well, I was reacting more to the postseason splits provided, and saying it definitely happened during the regular season. I would venture a guess that there are players who do want the tip off and players who don't want it. Lots of factors in play that could narrow how much its done or how much the benefit is realized, but overall the effect likely isn't that large.

 

But I'm willing to bet they either did it or made a decision not to do it every game, some way or some how, and especially at home.

Edited November 13, 2019 by minnesotacubsfan