Minor League Discussion & Boxes 7-21-13

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

[jersey cubs fan]

The mention was really more regarding their struggles in the majors than their successes at AAA. the fact that I stated that Rizzo struggled wasnt to draw a comparison, but show that players we tag as "prospects" can have bad first stints in the majors, too, and that Vitters shouldnt be written off because he had a bad 100 PAs.

 

My predilection to doubt Vitters emerged long before his time in the majors.

 

But then people need to mention that instead of using his time in the majors as proof of anything.

 

But yeah, his doubters were out weeks before he was drafted, myself included. I wanted Wieters, too. However, Vitters has slowly developed into a hitter that should be able to stick in the majors for a long time, perhaps much of that time as an everyday player.

 

His stint in the majors matters, as does his stint on the DL (at least the latest one). In order to stick in the majors as a starter for a long time you have to hit at a level appropriate for the position in which you play. If you are a 3B who can field well, you don't have to be great. If you aren't any good in the field, however, you really have to hit, and not just be competent.

[Guest]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

 

Ok, so his bat is excelling. His defense can be at least partially covered up by a move to the OF, where his arm might at least have some value.

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

 

Ok, so his bat is excelling. His defense can be at least partially covered up by a move to the OF, where his arm might at least have some value.

 

How is his bat "excelling?" Given the expectations and the need to overcome his defensive liabilities he needs to be beating the hell out of AAA. Relative to that he's essentially just doing well, but certainly nowhere near good enough to think he could justify being a starting corner MLB OF.

[Guest]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

 

Ok, so his bat is excelling. His defense can be at least partially covered up by a move to the OF, where his arm might at least have some value.

 

How is his bat "excelling?" Given the expectations and the need to overcome his defensive liabilities he needs to be beating the hell out of AAA. Relative to that he's essentially just doing well, but certainly nowhere near good enough to think he could justify being a starting corner MLB OF.

 

His OPS is near .900. You know, excelling.

[Guest]

All he would need to cover his defense and be valuable as a corner OF would be an .800-ish OPS, and that would account for 100 lost OPS points, not out of the realm of possibilities at all.

[Sammy Sofa]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

 

Ok, so his bat is excelling. His defense can be at least partially covered up by a move to the OF, where his arm might at least have some value.

 

How is his bat "excelling?" Given the expectations and the need to overcome his defensive liabilities he needs to be beating the hell out of AAA. Relative to that he's essentially just doing well, but certainly nowhere near good enough to think he could justify being a starting corner MLB OF.

 

His OPS is near .900. You know, excelling.

 

Yes, a high ceiling, defensively challenged prospect is hitting in the .800's in AAA. That's not excelling. Excelling is what Rizzo did.

[Guest]

Again, theres just so much capriciousness in evaluations. Some prospects seem to not be able to hit worth a [expletive] at low A, yet they are excused for being young, while remaining atop rankings, while players like Vitters can be completely forgotten while excelling at AAA at the age of 23.

 

He's not excelling at AAA, especially given the expectations and his defensive liabilities.

 

I'm not rooting against him, but I'm not holding my breath that he pans out.

 

Ok, so his bat is excelling. His defense can be at least partially covered up by a move to the OF, where his arm might at least have some value.

 

How is his bat "excelling?" Given the expectations and the need to overcome his defensive liabilities he needs to be beating the hell out of AAA. Relative to that he's essentially just doing well, but certainly nowhere near good enough to think he could justify being a starting corner MLB OF.

 

His OPS is near .900. You know, excelling.

 

Yes, a high ceiling, defensively challenged prospect is hitting in the .800's in AAA. That's not excelling. Excelling is what Rizzo did.

 

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

[jersey cubs fan]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

[Sammy Sofa]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

[Sammy Sofa]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

 

Really? A guy hitting over 1.000 isn't a better example of "excelling" than a guy with serious defensive problems hitting in the .800's? I'm just using sulley's own terminology. Please don't make this yet another example of "jersey unleashes a semantics vendetta."

[jersey cubs fan]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

 

Really? A guy hitting over 1.000 isn't a better example of "excelling" than a guy with serious defensive problems hitting in the .800's?

 

Rizzo obviously was a better example of a player excelling at AAA than Vitters.

[Sammy Sofa]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

 

Really? A guy hitting over 1.000 isn't a better example of "excelling" than a guy with serious defensive problems hitting in the .800's?

 

Rizzo obviously was a better example of a player excelling at AAA than Vitters.

 

Which was my point.

[Guest]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

 

If he gets to .900 in AAA, that would put his career AAA OPS at .900, too, which would be in 500-600 PAs, not really a small window.

[Guest]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

 

Not really.

[Guest]

Like I said, it's much closer to .900 than .800. And yeah, what Rizzo did was awesome, but that's not the bar for excellent.

 

Yeah, the bar for excellence is probably above what Rizzo did. Not sure what the point is on that one.

 

Really? A guy hitting over 1.000 isn't a better example of "excelling" than a guy with serious defensive problems hitting in the .800's? I'm just using sulley's own terminology. Please don't make this yet another example of "jersey unleashes a semantics vendetta."

 

This is already a semantics vendetta.

[Sammy Sofa]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

 

If he gets to .900 in AAA, that would put his career AAA OPS at .900, too, which would be in 500-600 PAs, not really a small window.

 

Wait, if he makes it to a .900 OPS this one season it somehow makes his career AAA OPS .900? How the hell does that work?

[Guest]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

 

If he gets to .900 in AAA, that would put his career AAA OPS at .900, too, which would be in 500-600 PAs, not really a small window.

 

Wait, if he makes it to a .900 OPS this one season it somehow makes his career AAA OPS .900? How the hell does that work?

Sorry, meant to say close or ish.

[Sammy Sofa]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

 

If he gets to .900 in AAA, that would put his career AAA OPS at .900, too, which would be in 500-600 PAs, not really a small window.

 

Wait, if he makes it to a .900 OPS this one season it somehow makes his career AAA OPS .900? How the hell does that work?

Sorry, meant to say close or ish.

 

I guess...look, I just don't find that all that impressive given his supposed pedigree and how he needs to offset his defensive abilities. Just to keep it in house, David DeJesus managed a .900-ish OPS in the PCL, too. And Vitters doesn't have the defense.

[Guest]

He's only been flirting with .900 for a very, very brief window, soooooo...let's not sucking each other's hot dogs just yet.

 

If he gets to .900 in AAA, that would put his career AAA OPS at .900, too, which would be in 500-600 PAs, not really a small window.

 

Wait, if he makes it to a .900 OPS this one season it somehow makes his career AAA OPS .900? How the hell does that work?

Sorry, meant to say close or ish.

 

I guess...look, I just don't find that all that impressive given his supposed pedigree and how he needs to offset his defensive abilities. Just to keep it in house, David DeJesus managed a .900-ish OPS in the PCL, too. And Vitters doesn't have the defense.

 

I would say that Vitters is a lot younger and hasnt reached his potential, yet. I just don't think it's a stretch to say that Vitters could be a valuable corner OF for us soon, regardless of his defensive ability at third.

[CubColtPacer]

All he would need to cover his defense and be valuable as a corner OF would be an .800-ish OPS, and that would account for 100 lost OPS points, not out of the realm of possibilities at all.

 

PCL average last year was .278/.345/.430

National League average was .254/.318/.400

 

That's already 55 points right there. That doesn't even account for the normal loss in numbers from jumping up to the majors, or the thought that power hitters tend to have even more inflated numbers in the PCL than the averages would suggest.

 

Vitters' MLE equivalent last year was .253/.291/.409. Not awful for a solid third baseman. Pretty bad for a corner OF or a bad defensive third baseman. The odds of him hitting anywhere near an .800 OPS in major league action are pretty low still, although the limited action this year has some encouraging signs of continued progress.

[Little Slide Rooter]

My assumption is that the only reason we're getting a PTBNL instead of Ramirez right off the bat is because they were still awaiting Ramirez' medical results and wanted to make sure that Garza didn't pitch before they got him, but also didn't want to run into another Brigham situation if they did pull the trigger with Ramirez, and he turned out to be damaged goods.

[Sammy Sofa]

All he would need to cover his defense and be valuable as a corner OF would be an .800-ish OPS, and that would account for 100 lost OPS points, not out of the realm of possibilities at all.

 

PCL average last year was .278/.345/.430

National League average was .254/.318/.400

 

That's already 55 points right there. That doesn't even account for the normal loss in numbers from jumping up to the majors, or the thought that power hitters tend to have even more inflated numbers in the PCL than the averages would suggest.

 

Vitters' MLE equivalent last year was .253/.291/.409. Not awful for a solid third baseman. Pretty bad for a corner OF or a bad defensive third baseman. The odds of him hitting anywhere near an .800 OPS in major league action are pretty low still, although the limited action this year has some encouraging signs of continued progress.

 

Exactly. Thanks for putting it better than I could have.

[Guest]

All he would need to cover his defense and be valuable as a corner OF would be an .800-ish OPS, and that would account for 100 lost OPS points, not out of the realm of possibilities at all.

 

PCL average last year was .278/.345/.430

National League average was .254/.318/.400

 

That's already 55 points right there. That doesn't even account for the normal loss in numbers from jumping up to the majors, or the thought that power hitters tend to have even more inflated numbers in the PCL than the averages would suggest.

 

Vitters' MLE equivalent last year was .253/.291/.409. Not awful for a solid third baseman. Pretty bad for a corner OF or a bad defensive third baseman. The odds of him hitting anywhere near an .800 OPS in major league action are pretty low still, although the limited action this year has some encouraging signs of continued progress.

 

Wouldnt a player significantly above the average slash line stand to lose less OPS point than the average player, though?

[Sammy Sofa]

He's about 100 points above that line.