Tigers sign Prince - 9/214 - Heyman

[Magnetic Curses]

One thing I'll say is that the thought that Prince is "entering his prime" is not true.

 

he's most certainly in his prime and will be in his prime for the next 4 years, most likely.

 

and over that time frame he's likely to be worth between 90-100 million, i forgot to mention.

[C.C.]

Agree completely with that statement. The FO isn't going to punt an entire season, but they are trying to build a team that will consistently be in the playoff race. That takes both a strong farm system and shrewd signings at the major league level. I'm sure they are also still retooling their gameplan after the new CBA rules. Plus, I'm guessing they don't think they need as strong a team, or as many big FA moves in the NL central as they did in the AL east, especially with Pujols and possibly Prince now gone from the division.

 

I hope you are guessing wrong because that would be a stupid way to think. "We don't have to get that good because the division is weaker now"

[b_wiggy_66]

Agree completely with that statement. The FO isn't going to punt an entire season, but they are trying to build a team that will consistently be in the playoff race. That takes both a strong farm system and shrewd signings at the major league level. I'm sure they are also still retooling their gameplan after the new CBA rules. Plus, I'm guessing they don't think they need as strong a team, or as many big FA moves in the NL central as they did in the AL east, especially with Pujols and possibly Prince now gone from the division.

 

I hope you are guessing wrong because that would be a stupid way to think. "We don't have to get that good because the division is weaker now"

 

Probably could have been worded better. I don't think they are saying we don't have to be that good. I assume it at least entered there mind that now they have a little more flexibility here in a much weaker division to make a few more mistakes and take some more risks, than say being in the AL east. There isn't a guaranteed 90 win team every year in the Central like the Yankees and Rays in the east.

[C.C.]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

This. Let's not sign Fielder, and we'll just stand pat and wait for the perfect situation which may never come. If Fielder's not worth a couple of possibly mediocre years at the end of a seven year deal, who is? He's 27 years old and entering his prime. We are likely to get at least 4-5 years of elite production out of him. I've seen a lot of bellyaching about how we shouldn't sign him because 1-2 mediocre years at the end of a contract are going to somehow cripple the Cubs in the future, but no alternate suggestions. If not Prince, who is going to pop up in the next few years as the long term solution at first base?

I also find it interesting how the general attitude on this board toward getting Prince changed as soon as Theo took over.

 

it changed because people thought theo was going to draft a million elite players and we wouldn't need to sign free agents.

it goes back to the meatball idea of "building a team the right way", which is closely related to "playing the game the right way".

 

sure, any team that's in contention year after year is going to have some home-grown starters, but if you are a big market team, you have the luxury of signing elite talent for elite money.

 

Why would people think that? That's not what he did in Boston.

 

He did in the end. When he first became GM, it was his 1st GM job so he couldn't just jump in and spend, spend, spend. 9 years later, he's one of the most respected execs in baseball and has a much longer leash than he did back then. If Ricketts didn't have full faith in Epstein, the negotiations probably would have ended as soon as Boston started with the ridiculous compensation requests.

 

Boston was a better team when Theo took over back then. He had impact players like Manny. We have none.

[Schwarber Fan]

Prince will go to Texas... I'm convinced.

[b_wiggy_66]

Prince will go to Texas... I'm convinced.

 

I'm a big Prince advocate, but I don't see his body holding up well in the Texas heat every summer.

[davell]

2 year plan. I honestly don't care what we do at the major league level in 2012. But, we'll have a decent squad, in all likelihood at the major league level. with the money we have coming off this year and next, we can add 2 impact bats and 2 impact arms. It's what we SHOULD do. As I mentioned earlier, one of these guys will probably have to come through trade, just to keep us from adding 80 mill in payroll on 4 guys.

 

What we have

 

Pitching- by 2013, we'll have Garza. Maybe. If you trade him, you better bring an elite arm in return that's ready to go in 2013 as well. We may have Cashner, Shark, or McNutt ready to fill a spot by then. But, it's a 4/5 spot.

 

What we need

 

Pitching- 2 elite arms through trade or FA. Take your pick of Darvish or a trade for this winter. It's our only option to address this right now. We'll probably need a back of the rotation guy as well, so hopefully we find a trade for a Wade Davis or someone, who at least has the ability to turn into more than what we acquired them to be. Wei Yen Chen makes sense here as well. If Theo is completely sold Edwin Jackson's got it in him to be a top of the rotation guy, he needs to go get him, because his market is slow to develop and he may come cheaper than we were thinking. Leaving us more money to spend elsewhere. Definitely a risk though.

 

Next year's FA class offers much more, at least right now. Some of these guys will re-up, but some will be out there as well. Matt Cain, John Danks, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez. I'd make a bet right now at least ONE of those 8 guys is in our rotation by 2013. Could even be 2 of them. Obviously, not all are "aces" but all are or should be very solid front of the rotation guys.

 

I'm not mentioning the bullpen here, by the way, because I think that even if lose Marmol, we've got the makings of a very nice pen. Plenty of young power arms to play around with here. No big money should or will be tied up here.

 

Catching- We've got Soto and CAN have him in 2013. If we do, I hope it's his last season with us, because I don't want to give him a 3 year deal or so at that point. Perfect world has Castillo giving us very cheap solid production. Or maybe we draft Zunino and he's ready mid 2014 somehow and we either use Soto or a stopgap if Soto is dealt between now and then. Probably not adding your bigtime bat here.

 

What we need out of Catcher- What we're getting is fine, I doubt we find an impact bat here.

 

Corner Infield- Obviously, you want Fielder to be one of these impact bats. Mainly because there's not many out there and even less next year. May have to acquire the bat through trade and buy the pitching. 3B is not really an option through FA between now and then. Trade for Wright on last year of his deal? Doubtful, not worth it. Hope Stewart gets it going. Otherwise, we're probably looking at another stopgap in 2013 or Vitters or Lake. Neither of which has inspired me to not worry about 3B longterm as of yet.

 

What we need out of the Corners- At least one and maybe both of the impact bats come from here. My guess is just one at 1B, since 3B production has become very scarce.

 

 

 

Middle Infield- Castro is not moving between now and then. Sticking at SS and we're so lucky to have him. Can't say that enough. Barney? He's fine, but I hope we've upgraded by then personally. Kendrick and Phillips are both FA in 2012, but both could resign. Trade for a bat is about the only option I see here as well, if we want to do something.

 

What we need out of the Middle Infield

 

Castro is elite and we're getting that production at a bargain. It'd be nice to have more offense out of 2B, but it's not totally necessary, unless we can't find it elsewhere.

 

 

Outfield- My guess is we'll be rid of Soriano by then. If not, he's just kind of in the way. I'm counting on Brett Jackson to be a decent CF. I bet Theo is as well. We'll have DeJesus in RF and LF is open. Brett could move there and leave CF open. Either way, we've got an opening. Cespedes could be the big bat here. So could BJ Upton next year. I seriously doubt Texas lets Hamilton walk. Our only other potential big bat in the OF is Andre Ethier.

 

What we need out of the OF

 

Pressure on Brett Jackson to become a decent OBP, decent power, decent speed, cheap guy for one. But, I think he will become just that and give us great cheap production. DeJesus is what he is, so we need an impact bat at the other spot. A guy that's going to hit behind or in front of Prince almost definitely has to come from this spot.

 

 

Like I said, if we add 4 big pieces, it's probably going to be 3 through FA and one through trade. So, here's the puzzle, fill it in your own.

 

SP Garze, blank, blank, cheap blank, Cashner, Shark, or McNutt

 

BP Not worried about it, we've got the arms here

 

C blank or Soto or Castillo

1B blank, hopefully Prince

2B blank or Barney

SS Castro

3B blank or Stewart/Vitters/Lake

LF blank

CF B Jackson

RF DeJesus

 

Make the 4 bigtime upgrades wherever you want. In total, you've probably got 70 mill or so to do it AND still spend decently on IFA as well this winter. 3 20 mill guys and a traded for 10 mill guy. Payroll will be sustainable by doing this as well. And we've got a serious contender by then and going forward as well.

 

Getting to this stage though, is more important to me than just 2012. So yes, I want us to add what we can right now, but not at the expense of the 4 big additions by next offseason. Basically, I don't want 2 or 3 year deals on average pitching or hitting that takes away money from this plan. Sign one year stopgaps to keep from doing that. I want a team that's fairly young going forward, heading to, or are in their primes. Prince, Cespedes, and Darvish fit those parameters. No other FA really did or does this year. Go get them, or it leaves that much more to do next year, without as many options to do it.

[17 Seconds]

i'll agree with the statement that prince isn't really "entering his prime". he's in his prime, but 24-25 would be more of the age where you'd say he's "entering" it. dude has entered. he's been in it. he might be like halfway through it.

[Little Slide Rooter]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

Is it so hard for you to comprehend that I simply think Fielder is a poor risk on a long-term deal? Is that concept too difficult to get your head around?

 

It doesn't mean I don't want the Cubs to sign any elite players, ever. Sheesh.

 

If you're talking true elite players, they're almost always going to require a 6-8 year deal, unless they're at the tail end of their prime, at least the way the market is constructed now. Also, more and more teams are locking up young star players long term, which is why so many people want to jump on Fielder. Who knows the next time an elite player at a young age is going to even hit the maket.

[davearm2]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

Is it so hard for you to comprehend that I simply think Fielder is a poor risk on a long-term deal? Is that concept too difficult to get your head around?

 

It doesn't mean I don't want the Cubs to sign any elite players, ever. Sheesh.

 

If you're talking true elite players, they're almost always going to require a 6-8 year deal, unless they're at the tail end of their prime, at least the way the market is constructed now. Also, more and more teams are locking up young star players long term, which is why so many people want to jump on Fielder. Who knows the next time an elite player at a young age is going to even hit the maket.

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Boston was a better team when Theo took over back then. He had impact players like Manny. We have none.

 

I hadn't heard.

[CincyCubsFan]

Next year's FA class offers much more, at least right now. Some of these guys will re-up, but some will be out there as well. Matt Cain, John Danks, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez. I'd make a bet right now at least ONE of those 8 guys is in our rotation by 2013. Could even be 2 of them. Obviously, not all are "aces" but all are or should be very solid front of the rotation guys.

When all these guys start getting offers for 5-6 year deals, are we going to have to look elsewhere because of a fear of "overpaying?"

[Little Slide Rooter]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

Is it so hard for you to comprehend that I simply think Fielder is a poor risk on a long-term deal? Is that concept too difficult to get your head around?

 

It doesn't mean I don't want the Cubs to sign any elite players, ever. Sheesh.

 

If you're talking true elite players, they're almost always going to require a 6-8 year deal, unless they're at the tail end of their prime, at least the way the market is constructed now. Also, more and more teams are locking up young star players long term, which is why so many people want to jump on Fielder. Who knows the next time an elite player at a young age is going to even hit the maket.

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

[davearm2]

The logic seems to be, "well we've got a hole at 1B and we've got money to spend, so let's go ahead and offer a big contract that we'll later regret, since it'll only hurt us, not cripple us."

 

Sorry, not onboard with that plan.

 

That isn't the logic. The logic is we have a need for more left-handed hitters, power, youth and a middle of the order bat. Turns out Fielder fits that and he is just coming into his prime. You will never be able to sign good players if you are unwilling to take the risk that it may not work out. We have money, plenty of it, and more coming off the books soon. We aren't the Pirates, if we make smart moves the majority of the time, we can afford to make a big mistake here and there, which I don't think Fielder would be.

I'm not unwilling to take the risk that it may not work out.

 

I'm unwilling to take the risk when I expect it will not work out.

[davearm2]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

Is it so hard for you to comprehend that I simply think Fielder is a poor risk on a long-term deal? Is that concept too difficult to get your head around?

 

It doesn't mean I don't want the Cubs to sign any elite players, ever. Sheesh.

 

If you're talking true elite players, they're almost always going to require a 6-8 year deal, unless they're at the tail end of their prime, at least the way the market is constructed now. Also, more and more teams are locking up young star players long term, which is why so many people want to jump on Fielder. Who knows the next time an elite player at a young age is going to even hit the maket.

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

That may be true, but it's not a compelling argument for entering into a contract you think will turn out to be a mistake.

[davell]

Next year's FA class offers much more, at least right now. Some of these guys will re-up, but some will be out there as well. Matt Cain, John Danks, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez. I'd make a bet right now at least ONE of those 8 guys is in our rotation by 2013. Could even be 2 of them. Obviously, not all are "aces" but all are or should be very solid front of the rotation guys.

When all these guys start getting offers for 5-6 year deals, are we going to have to look elsewhere because of a fear of "overpaying?"

 

Nope. Not if you ever want to get one of them. Most of these guys are young enough to give excellent production through most of the deal and by the time it may hurt us, we have to have faith that the system will have produced capable replacements or allow to trade for those replacements one or the other.

 

To me, while I would have done cartwheels if we had signed Pujols, it really went against my longterm idea. Fielder is a much better fit, if you ask me. Wilson wasn't coming here anyway, so I don't know why anyone is worried about missing out on him.

 

Like I said, 4 bigtime players. 2 bats. 2 arms. I'm figuring 20 mill per guy for 3 of them and 10 mill for the traded guy we acquire. Length of contract is what it is and I'm trying to address that as well, indirectly, by spending as much as I can on IFA before the deadline comes and we can't. Hoping this helps us out during the latter years of some of these FA's, if the production drops off bigtime.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Next year's FA class offers much more, at least right now. Some of these guys will re-up, but some will be out there as well. Matt Cain, John Danks, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum, Brandon McCarthy, Anibal Sanchez. I'd make a bet right now at least ONE of those 8 guys is in our rotation by 2013. Could even be 2 of them. Obviously, not all are "aces" but all are or should be very solid front of the rotation guys.

When all these guys start getting offers for 5-6 year deals, are we going to have to look elsewhere because of a fear of "overpaying?"

 

We need a big bat AND one of them. Of the guys listed, Cain and Hamels are the only ones that I think would truely be worth 5-6 year deals. Danks and Greinke will likely get 4-5. Marcums a bit older so I'll say 3-4. McCarthy and Sanchez really arent on that level. A good 2012 could get them a decent 2-3 year. Liriano as well, depending on his 2012 could get anything from a 1-4 year deal. I thought that Lincecum was in that class as well. And who knows, a certain tempermental Cubs pitcher could have a huge, breakdown-free season and end up with a 2-3 year deal assuming his option is declined or doesnt vest.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Prince will go to Texas... I'm convinced.

 

I'm a big Prince advocate, but I don't see his body holding up well in the Texas heat every summer.

Agree that Texas is the team that scares me the most in terms of our direct competition for Prince. They've got the money, they have a need at 1B, they have a new TV deal, and--to be brutally honest--their front office is likely feeling some pressure to make a splash in light of what their division rival, the Angels, have done over the past week.

 

And I don't think Scott Boras (or anyone else) gives a crap about the Texas heat as long as Prince gets the biggest deal possible, be it from the Rangers or anyone else. Regardless, I bet Texas could sell him on how easy it is for lefties to rake at that park.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

That may be true, but it's not a compelling argument for entering into a contract you think will turn out to be a mistake.

 

I have no reason not to believe that Fielder doesnt have at least 4-5 prime years left. Could be more. Would you really be upset if we got 4-5 prime years of Fielder and then he hits an early decline around age 33? He'd still be young enough where we could send him off to DH.

[b_wiggy_66]

ok, so don't overpay in years or money for top talent, and never sign any elite players. sounds like a real sharp move for one of the biggest-market teams in the game.

Is it so hard for you to comprehend that I simply think Fielder is a poor risk on a long-term deal? Is that concept too difficult to get your head around?

 

 

 

If you're talking true elite players, they're almost always going to require a 6-8 year deal, unless they're at the tail end of their prime, at least the way the market is constructed now. Also, more and more teams are locking up young star players long term, which is why so many people want to jump on Fielder. Who knows the next time an elite player at a young age is going to even hit the maket.

 

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

That may be true, but it's not a compelling argument for entering into a contract you think will turn out to be a mistake.

 

True, but when you have a market deficiency you sometimes have to overpay knowing it may not work out perfectly. This may be our only chance to add a 3 or 4 hitter in the near future. We have nobody in the pipeline, nor do we have enough assets in the minors or major league roster to trade for one. Who is going to drive in runs on this team right now? Byrd and Castro? I hope that won't be the case.

[b_wiggy_66]

Prince will go to Texas... I'm convinced.

 

I'm a big Prince advocate, but I don't see his body holding up well in the Texas heat every summer.

Agree that Texas is the team that scares me the most in terms of our direct competition for Prince. They've got the money, they have a need at 1B, they have a new TV deal, and--to be brutally honest--their front office is likely feeling some pressure to make a splash in light of what their division rival, the Angels, have done over the past week.

 

And I don't think Scott Boras (or anyone else) gives a crap about the Texas heat as long as Prince gets the biggest deal possible, be it from the Rangers or anyone else. Regardless, I bet Texas could sell him on how easy it is for lefties to rake at that park.

 

Boras won't care, but I'm saying, if I'm the Rangers I would be wary of giving out that kind of deal to him.

[davearm2]

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

That may be true, but it's not a compelling argument for entering into a contract you think will turn out to be a mistake.

 

I have no reason not to believe that Fielder doesnt have at least 4-5 prime years left. Could be more. Would you really be upset if we got 4-5 prime years of Fielder and then he hits an early decline around age 33? He'd still be young enough where we could send him off to DH.

Have you read the frontpage article on Fielder? It provides reasons to believe Fielder doesn't have at least 4-5 prime years left.

 

But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't be upset with 4-5 prime years and 1-2 decline years. I just don't have confidence that's how it's going to play out for this particular player.

[davell]

I'll even say this: Now that Boras has watched Pujols get his 10 year deal, unless we're ready to go 6/180 on Prince or something like that, we're going to need to give him 7 and maybe 8 years. but, it's going to be 200 mill.

 

If Hamels hit the open market, he'd get 7 years from someone, maybe 8. Cain too. Greinke probably gets 6, because of the social anxiety issue in the back of everyone's minds. Danks will get 5 or 6. I think guys like McCarthy and Sanchez get more than 2-3 year deals as well. Maybe much more, depending on how well their seasons go. Liriano is a wildcard obviously. Marcum is a bit older, but still could see him getting 4 or 5 years. He certainly would have if he were available right now. Considering Buehrle just got 4 especially and he's older.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'm not afraid of a 6-8 year deal for a guy that can be expected to age well. Fielder ain't that guy.

 

But like I said, you never know the next time that a 27 year old elite player will even be available regardless of their physical build.

That may be true, but it's not a compelling argument for entering into a contract you think will turn out to be a mistake.

 

I have no reason not to believe that Fielder doesnt have at least 4-5 prime years left. Could be more. Would you really be upset if we got 4-5 prime years of Fielder and then he hits an early decline around age 33? He'd still be young enough where we could send him off to DH.

Have you read the frontpage article on Fielder? It provides reasons to believe Fielder doesn't have at least 4-5 prime years left.

 

Hahahahahahaaah!!!

 

Way to distance yourself from your own "article."

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'll even say this: Now that Boras has watched Pujols get his 10 year deal, unless we're ready to go 6/180 on Prince or something like that, we're going to need to give him 7 and maybe 8 years. but, it's going to be 200 mill.

 

If Hamels hit the open market, he'd get 7 years from someone, maybe 8. Cain too. Greinke probably gets 6, because of the social anxiety issue in the back of everyone's minds. Danks will get 5 or 6. I think guys like McCarthy and Sanchez get more than 2-3 year deals as well. Maybe much more, depending on how well their seasons go. Liriano is a wildcard obviously. Marcum is a bit older, but still could see him getting 4 or 5 years. He certainly would have if he were available right now. Considering Buehrle just got 4 especially and he's older.

 

Remember Buehrle only got 4 because of how weak the rest of the SP market is. In the 2012 FA class I doubt he'd get that.