Braun wins NL MVP

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So if Yuniesky Betancourt put up Kemp numbers, does he get extra credit for playing shortstop?

 

YES. This is 2011 and you are on a sabersavvy website. I should not have to be going back over the concept of positional adjustments.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Kemp should've won, but I don't consider Braun winning to be some kind of outrage or egregious miscarriage of justice. We've had MVP votes that were complete shams and embarrassments to the voting process (Rollins, Pudge, Kent); this isn't one of them.

 

The voters got this one wrong by once again giving to the candidate with the better teammates, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

[Derwood]

 

The voters got this one wrong by once again giving to the candidate with the better teammates, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

 

Because its MVP, not Player of the Year

[chopsx9]

Yep, no difference between Dodger Stadium and Miller Park. Their defense was very similar too

 

The award is based on what was accomplished not on a best guess at what their numbers would have been based on conjecture that may never actually manifest itself. Just look how Soriano's HR totals plummeted when he played for the Nationals. If DS is tougher to hit in - tough [expletive]. That's the nature of the game. If you are evaluating for future performance or determining trade value that's a completly different matter - but that's not what this was.

 

That's like taking the Oscar away from Heath Ledger and giving it to Robert Downey because you think he'd have done a better job than Ledger if had he gotten the role.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Yep, no difference between Dodger Stadium and Miller Park. Their defense was very similar too

 

The award is based on what was accomplished not on a best guess at what their numbers would have been based on conjecture that may never actually manifest itself. Just look how Soriano's HR totals plummeted when he played for the Nationals. If DS is tougher to hit in - tough [expletive]. That's the nature of the game. If you are evaluating for future performance or determining trade value that's a completly different matter - but that's not what this was.

 

That's like taking the Oscar away from Heath Ledger and giving it to Robert Downey because you think he'd have done a better job than Ledger if had he gotten the role.

That's not the argument he's making. It's that Kemp's superiority in production to Braun is that much more impressive because it came playing in an extreme pitcher's park. Because Kemp likely would've put up better numbers playing half his games in Miller Park is just a natural consequence of putting the numbers he did in a less favorable hitting environment.

[Derwood]

Kemp was nearly identical a hitter home and away, meaning that park factors didn't amount of much of anything

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Kemp was nearly identical a hitter home and away, meaning that park factors didn't amount of much of anything

 

That doesn't mean that. And even if it did, the ability to neutralize a pitcher's park adds to his value.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Kemp was nearly identical a hitter home and away, meaning that park factors didn't amount of much of anything

 

That doesn't mean that. And even if it did, the ability to neutralize a pitcher's park adds to his value.

Exactly. Most players hit better home than on the road; that Kemp hit identically home and the road doesn't mean the park didn't matter.

 

Imagine if he played at a non-pitcher's park as his home park; his home numbers would be even better than they were.

[chopsx9]

Yep, no difference between Dodger Stadium and Miller Park. Their defense was very similar too

 

The award is based on what was accomplished not on a best guess at what their numbers would have been based on conjecture that may never actually manifest itself. Just look how Soriano's HR totals plummeted when he played for the Nationals. If DS is tougher to hit in - tough [expletive]. That's the nature of the game. If you are evaluating for future performance or determining trade value that's a completly different matter - but that's not what this was.

 

That's like taking the Oscar away from Heath Ledger and giving it to Robert Downey because you think he'd have done a better job than Ledger if had he gotten the role.

That's not the argument he's making. It's that Kemp's superiority in production to Braun is that much more impressive because it came playing in an extreme pitcher's park. Because Kemp likely would've put up better numbers playing half his games in Miller Park is just a natural consequence of putting the numbers he did in a less favorable hitting environment.

 

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

When you play in a low run-scoring environment, the runs you produce are more... wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...

 

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

valuable.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

When you play in a low run-scoring environment, the runs you produce are more... wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...

 

 

...

 

...

 

...

 

valuable.

Forget it, it's no use.

[Formerly Snayke]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

The results are skewered because the two players are hitting in completely different environments.

[Guest]

Kemp was nearly identical a hitter home and away, meaning that park factors didn't amount of much of anything

 

That's ridiculous. Imagine if his home park was more offensive-friendly than Dodger Stadium is and consider if you'd come to the same conclusion.

[davearm2]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

The results are skewered because the two players are hitting in completely different environments.

The results are skewered because the term "most valuable" is ambiguous.

 

I really don't think folks realize they're not arguing over who most deserves the award. They're arguing over which definition should be used. (Or more specifically, how the various factors should be weighted.)

[Clem Fandango]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

The results are skewered because the two players are hitting in completely different environments.

The results are skewered because the term "most valuable" is ambiguous.

 

I really don't think folks realize they're not arguing over who most deserves the award. They're arguing over which definition should be used. (Or more specifically, how the various factors should be weighted.)

 

Pretty much this. I'm sure most voters recognize that Kemp had the better season, but they probably thought "Without Braun the Brewers don't make the playoffs", and thus, they considered him more valuable.

 

Which honestly, I'm more in favor of. It's the reason Sammy Sosa (1.024 OPS) beat Mark McGwire (1.222 OPS) in voting in 1998, same reason here.

 

There's already an award for best offensive player (Hank Aaron Award), and Kemp will did win that

[Derwood]

FWIW, Miller Park was the 10th best hitter's park in baseball, while Dodger's Stadium was the 9th best pitcher's park.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

I wouldn't disagree but awards are based on results not on what might have been.

 

The results are skewered because the two players are hitting in completely different environments.

The results are skewered because the term "most valuable" is ambiguous.

 

I really don't think folks realize they're not arguing over who most deserves the award. They're arguing over which definition should be used. (Or more specifically, how the various factors should be weighted.)

 

Pretty much this. I'm sure most voters recognize that Kemp had the better season, but they probably thought "Without Braun the Brewers don't make the playoffs", and thus, they considered him more valuable.

 

Which honestly, I'm more in favor of. It's the reason Sammy Sosa (1.024 OPS) beat Mark McGwire (1.222 OPS) in voting in 1998, same reason here.

 

There's already an award for best offensive player (Hank Aaron Award), and Kemp will did win that

Right; they gave it to the guy with better teammates.

[17 Seconds]

does a 10 dollar bill have more value in the hands of a millionaire than it does in the hands of a homeless person?

 

in the literal sense, no. it's value is still exactly 10 dollars.

[ConstableRabbit]

does a 10 dollar bill have more value in the hands of a millionaire than it does in the hands of a homeless person?

 

in the literal sense, no. it's value is still exactly 10 dollars.

To take that analogy one step further:

 

The rich guy has $999,990 and the poor guy has $10,000. The argument many are making is that the rich guy doesn't become a millionaire without the $10.