THE CC Sabathia

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

CJ Wilson is closer to being Rich Harden than CC Sabathia.

 

I want to know how the hell you think body fat helps a pitcher be more durable.

 

 

Because it's a good thing to have body fat? How is this not computing? What am I saying that's so out of this world? And I mean what I said...not what you think I said...not what you're interpreting it to be...not the garbage you've added to try to make it sound stupid...You came into here disagreeing with a statement you clearly didn't understand, and have continued to run with it anyway.

 

To dignify the bs anyway:

 

About the only thing Harden and Wilson have in common is that they're both ~6'1". Otherwise, Wilson is more thickly built, has a bigger lower body, wider/broader shoulders...In that sense he's closer to CC than he is Harden, and it probably helps play a part in Wilson's durability vs Harden's attempts at being durable...as well as mechanics, natural athleticism and flexibility...

[davell]

Obviously I don't know what will appear on the trade market this offseason yet, but we have heard rumors of Danks or Floyd being available, same with Liriano. I could see the Dodgers possibly putting Billingsley out there. You're right about Jackson though, especially after looking at the list of guys available, he's going to cash in bigtime. Maybe signing Bedard and making a trade for either Floyd or Danks? Based on contracts and where we're at right now, I think I'd rather see that than Cc and not much else done this offseason personally.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Obviously I don't know what will appear on the trade market this offseason yet, but we have heard rumors of Danks or Floyd being available, same with Liriano. I could see the Dodgers possibly putting Billingsley out there. You're right about Jackson though, especially after looking at the list of guys available, he's going to cash in bigtime. Maybe signing Bedard and making a trade for either Floyd or Danks? Based on contracts and where we're at right now, I think I'd rather see that than Cc and not much else done this offseason personally.

 

The only one guy I'm truly interested in there is Danks. Floyd and Billingsley are a notch above Jackson to me as far as interest goes, but neither is a game changer. Danks has the [huge] advantage of being LH on top of being the youngest of the bunch...He'd cost a truckload in prospects and then we'd have to pay him...same for the other two really. That's why I' prefer going balls out and grabbing the ace while he's out there (if he's out there) as a FA. There's only so many true aces out there in the pros...and I'm not sure there's a guy out there who's better established as one than CC, who's an old dog at this stuff at the young age of 30/31.

[Guest]

CJ Wilson is closer to being Rich Harden than CC Sabathia.

 

I want to know how the hell you think body fat helps a pitcher be more durable.

 

 

Because it's a good thing to have body fat? How is this not computing? What am I saying that's so out of this world? And I mean what I said...not what you think I said...not what you're interpreting it to be...not the garbage you've added to try to make it sound stupid...You came into here disagreeing with a statement you clearly didn't understand, and have continued to run with it anyway.

 

To dignify the bs anyway:

 

About the only thing Harden and Wilson have in common is that they're both ~6'1". Otherwise, Wilson is more thickly built, has a bigger lower body, wider/broader shoulders...In that sense he's closer to CC than he is Harden, and it probably helps play a part in Wilson's durability vs Harden's attempts at being durable...as well as mechanics, natural athleticism and flexibility...

 

 

I didn't say that CJ and Harden have similar bodies, I said that they are far more similar than CC and CJ. They both have relatively low body fat percentages. CJ just has more muscle.

 

CJ Wilson keeps his body fat percentage between 9-11%. That's very low.

 

 

Whatever you mean by "a healthy amount" - it's not what CC Sabathia has. That's for damn sure.

 

 

I'd also love to see some shred of evidence of any positive correlation between body fat and pitcher (or athlete in general) durability.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

 

I didn't say that CJ and Harden have similar bodies, I said that they are far more similar than CC and CJ. They both have relatively low body fat percentages. CJ just has more muscle.

 

CJ Wilson keeps his body fat percentage between 9-11%. That's very low.

 

 

Whatever you mean by "a healthy amount" - it's not what CC Sabathia has. That's for damn sure.

 

I'd also love to see some shred of evidence of any positive correlation between body fat and pitcher (or athlete in general) durability.

 

Yet he's made over a hundred of million dollars as a high end athlete in a professional sport...Hmmm...and you're the guy who threw himself into the conversation on that basis that me calling Wilson a fire hydrant is a bad thing and running with it from there....Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,......

 

Wow, has it really been over a month? The last time we looked at the effect of player size, we discovered that short and fat pitchers tend to be better, and fat pitchers especially have an inherent advantage over other pitchers—not only playing better, but for longer. Today, we will finally, after three months of adventure and discovery, complete this series and conclude, does size matter?

 

Tall pitchers, we find, are slightly worse-off than short pitchers, and overweight pitchers tend to perform better than their skinny brethren. Given that overweight pitchers also survive for much longer time periods in the major leagues, all else being equal, invest in fat guys. But generally, all else is not equal, in which the case the answer should be obvious: Go for the better ballplayer, always.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/does-size-matter-part-6/

 

Oh and:

 

http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-05-16/sports/17294158_1_strain-body-muscle

 

Harden agrees that a little extra body fat would be a good thing and A's conditioning coach Clarence Cockrell said that extra body fat helps with energy level and "right now, Rich is so lean, it doesn't help his body recover as quickly. The bigger he is, the more durable he will be." Harden, who is 6-foot-1 and weighs about 200 lbs, came into camp with just four percent body fat and tried to add some more, then got food poisoning and lost weight, instead.

 

Again, the closest Harden and Wilson get is height. I'll even go so far as saying that if CC he was 6'1 rather than 6'7, he'd be built more like Wilson than Harden.

[Guest]

 

I didn't say that CJ and Harden have similar bodies, I said that they are far more similar than CC and CJ. They both have relatively low body fat percentages. CJ just has more muscle.

 

CJ Wilson keeps his body fat percentage between 9-11%. That's very low.

 

 

Whatever you mean by "a healthy amount" - it's not what CC Sabathia has. That's for damn sure.

 

I'd also love to see some shred of evidence of any positive correlation between body fat and pitcher (or athlete in general) durability.

 

Yet he's made over a hundred of million dollars as a high end athlete in a professional sport...Hmmm...and you're the guy who threw himself into the conversation on that basis that me calling Wilson a fire hydrant is a bad thing and running with it from there....Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,......

 

Wow, has it really been over a month? The last time we looked at the effect of player size, we discovered that short and fat pitchers tend to be better, and fat pitchers especially have an inherent advantage over other pitchers—not only playing better, but for longer. Today, we will finally, after three months of adventure and discovery, complete this series and conclude, does size matter?

 

Tall pitchers, we find, are slightly worse-off than short pitchers, and overweight pitchers tend to perform better than their skinny brethren. Given that overweight pitchers also survive for much longer time periods in the major leagues, all else being equal, invest in fat guys. But generally, all else is not equal, in which the case the answer should be obvious: Go for the better ballplayer, always.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/does-size-matter-part-6/

 

Oh and:

 

http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-05-16/sports/17294158_1_strain-body-muscle

 

Harden agrees that a little extra body fat would be a good thing and A's conditioning coach Clarence Cockrell said that extra body fat helps with energy level and "right now, Rich is so lean, it doesn't help his body recover as quickly. The bigger he is, the more durable he will be." Harden, who is 6-foot-1 and weighs about 200 lbs, came into camp with just four percent body fat and tried to add some more, then got food poisoning and lost weight, instead.

 

Again, the closest Harden and Wilson get is height. I'll even go so far as saying that if CC he was 6'1 rather than 6'7, he'd be built more like Wilson than Harden.

 

 

Are you serious?

 

CJ Wilson has between 9-11% body fat. CC Sabathia is NOWHERE NEAR THAT. How the hell could you come to that conclusion?

 

Harden is an extreme example of a "ripped" pitcher...but, I digress, my contention has much more to do with the fact that you think CC basically being obese makes him a more durable pitcher.

 

The reason I questioned the "fire hydrant" comment was not because I thought you were calling him a bad thing...I asked so that I could make sure you realized what kind of body the guy has. There's nothing wrong with being muscular and lean like CJ. In fact, it's a great thing. And around 10% is where he probably should be (which is where he is). It's one thing to say at guys like that are more durable because of their body composition. There's no way in hell I buy that having an exceedingly high body fat percentage (like 20+%) is somehow helpful in terms of durability.

 

Let me remind you of the parameters of the study. I looked at all consecutive pitcher seasons with at least 200 batters faced between 1946 and 2005, almost 10,000 such pairs in all. I calculated for each pitcher his run average, strikeout rate, walk rate, home run rate, and batting average on balls in play in each season, and adjusted for the league average. I also included his height, and the number of pounds above or below expectation (based on his height) he was, also adjusted for league average (as today’s pitchers are taller).

 

For each variable, I ran two separate regressions, first using height and that variable in the first year to try to predict that variable in the second year, and then using pounds overweight and that variable in the first year to try to predict that variable in the second year. The question was, would either of these measures of size have a significant predictive effect? The results follow.

 

The study you linked to is flawed because it goes by weight only, and does not factor in body composition. Guys that have more muscle (which I have no doubt is a good thing) - as CJ does- are going to be labeled as "fat" because they weigh more. I know a hell of a lot about this subject and there is no reason that being excessively FAT (not heavy) would lead to increased durability.

 

Do I buy that working out regularly and being stronger, sturdier, and healthier = increased durability? Hell yea.

 

Do I buy that being somewhere between overweight and obese is somehow helpful in that regard? Nope.

 

That's not to say that CC doesn't have a ton of muscle & ligament strength under that fat that helps him be more durable, but an excessive amount of fat is not what is helping him there.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

The study you linked to is flawed because it goes by weight only, and does not factor in body composition

 

Of which Harden would still be in the extreme end of lean amongst the SPs, most likely.

[toonsterwu]

I'm inching more towards not making that one big splash (particularly on a positional player) this off-season, although I won't be angry if we do. While we can compete sooner than later by spending, I'm just not sure a championship caliber core can be in place soon enough to justify said move. I think the earliest timeline for when said core may be in place is probably 2 years from now, and as it relates to some of the key positional players on the market, I'm just not sold how good these guys will be when the core is in place. Furthermore, in a market that has several teams that likely will be able to spend cash, along with the fact that we're coming off a poor season and rebuilding, I'm very wary of significantly over-paying to land someone (in general). The Nationals have a lot of money lying around and may push for CJ Wilson or Prince Fielder. Blue Jays have money to spend. Both are situations that look as good, if not better, than us.

 

All that said, I'm okay with pushing for 3 of the guys you've listed moreso than the others - Darvish, Wilson, Reyes, probably in that order. I like Sabathia a ton, but 5/125 may not be enough and that's just scary. I think Garza/Dempster "2/3 SP acquisition" will be a solid front 3, and the rotation could be fine if we get a 4/5 starter that can eat innings to go with the other signing. I'm also looking at the 2013 FA pitching class, which looks much better as of now (granted, could change), and we'll have more flexibility to be aggressive next offseason, with Z's deal gone and Soriano's almost over. Beltran's just old. Even if he's rock solid for 2012 and perhaps 2013 (and he does have an injury history to be concerned with, along with his age), what's he going to be in 2014 and 2015? If you can get him for 3 years, okay, but I have my doubts.

 

I'm fine going after Reyes, but I think he's going to decline from his high this year. I guess Wilson comes with a caveat of how many years (I mean, if it's 5 guaranteed, I'd be a bit concerned - I think I'm okay with 4 and an option), but otherwise, okay, I'm okay pushing there. I think with Darvish, you have to trust your scouts. They may be wrong (maybe he isn't able to grip the different balls as well, maybe he doesn't adjust for some reason), but if your scouts say he's fine to take the chance on, then this is a FA signing that doesn't impact the draft, potentially addresses a big need, and opens the Japanese market in ways that Kosuke Fukudome could only dream about. If Ricketts approves the likely high cost that it would take to nab him, no problems there. I think it's more an issue of fan expectation with Darvish - if you expect some elite world-beater, one of the best in the game right away, the chances are high some fans will be disappointed.

 

I'm not saying we should just sit back and wait 2 years. We need to build towards that core, but I'm just not completely sold this is the right time to aggressively push in FA, particularly since we may have to over-spend in years, money, or both. But I'll trust whoever the GM is and Tom Ricketts, who has earned enough goodwill for me to have some faith. I just think that we can likely build a team for 2012, particularly on the positional side, with several 2nd tier signings that will be as effective, if not moreso, than making one (really, 3) big splashes, provided we make some prudent decisions/gambles, and that this will put us in better positioning for future FA classes.

 

Anyhow, just some late night thoughts that I've expressed elsewhere.

 

Edit: I'm ambivalent on Fielder (due to years moreso than AAV - if he's getting 6 or 7 years, I'd back the heck out), leaning no on Pujols unless there's some odd discount. Maybe Pujols is some exception to the rule of aging, but there's a high chance that he'll hit a decline sooner than later.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

If no Sabathia 2012 then Hamels 2013!

[toonsterwu]

Well, the last list I saw had Hamels, Cain, Danks, Greinke, Anibal Sanchez (if he keeps up his performance from this year, he'll jump up the list of FA options sooner than later, furthermore, considering he's with the Marlins, he might be one of the guys that has a good shot of making it to FA), amongst others. There were solid 2nd tier arms like Shaun Marcum. Liriano was out there. There's a bevy of club option guys that could be intriguing. A lot of these guys likely get signed down (I imagine the Brewers will likely try to keep one of Greinke or Marcum beyond 2012 and I gotta think Hamels becomes a priority for Ruben Amaro Jr., but I feel like a couple of these guys should make it. Who knows.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Well, the last list I saw had Hamels, Cain, Danks, Greinke, Anibal Sanchez (if he keeps up his performance from this year, he'll jump up the list of FA options sooner than later, furthermore, considering he's with the Marlins, he might be one of the guys that has a good shot of making it to FA), amongst others. There were solid 2nd tier arms like Shaun Marcum. Liriano was out there. There's a bevy of club option guys that could be intriguing. A lot of these guys likely get signed down (I imagine the Brewers will likely try to keep one of Greinke or Marcum beyond 2012 and I gotta think Hamels becomes a priority for Ruben Amaro Jr., but I feel like a couple of these guys should make it. Who knows.

 

Yeah so basically Hamels and then drop a tier everyone else...I do think he stays in Philly, but maybe he gets the itch to lead a staff of his own instead of always playing second or even third fiddle in Philly.

 

I like Danks and Greinke a bit...Cain would be alright...g'luck to anyone who pays Anibal Sanchez...way too many arm injuries...same for Liriano and Marcum...

 

Oh that reminds me...2012 trade candidate: Jonathan Sanchez. Still pretty young lefty at 29 who can get K's with good stuff...didn't suck until the WS in the playoffs his first time there...no room in the loaded Giants rotation...Dot dot dot.

[toonsterwu]

Anibal Sanchez has had his issues in the past. But this 2 seasons of close to 200 innings of work. I wouldn't be concerned giving him a 3 or 4 year deal because of his past (outside of the general concern that comes with any pitcher). The velocity's sharper and he's hitting his prime (next year is his age 28 season).

 

If we were simply looking at talent, I'd put Greinke above Hamels. Since it isn't only talent, I'd put them about on par. Danks sort of hovers between the Marcum level and the Greinke/Hamels level for me.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Anibal Sanchez has had his issues in the past. But this 2 seasons of close to 200 innings of work. I wouldn't be concerned giving him a 3 or 4 year deal because of his past (outside of the general concern that comes with any pitcher). The velocity's sharper and he's hitting his prime (next year is his age 28 season).

 

If we were simply looking at talent, I'd put Greinke above Hamels. Since it isn't only talent, I'd put them about on par. Danks sort of hovers between the Marcum level and the Greinke/Hamels level for me.

 

Even simply on talent I'd pick Hamels. Lefty K pitcher all day...

[Banedon]

The Yankees have already made a new contract offer to Sabathia and remain the favorites to keep him, although the Cubs, Rangers, Tigers, Blue Jays and Cubs are also considered possibilities.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/baseball/mlb/10/30/sabathia.yankees/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=hp_bn10

 

We might get him twice, apparently.

[Guest]

So nice he had to say it twice.

[Guest]

CC isn't opting out.

 

 

@CC_Sabathia CC Sabathia

Yankee fans, I’ll be here fighting for number 28 next year! zdig.co/rr9S2i

[Castro13]

Reportedly has signed a 5yr 122 mil extension

[davell]

I'm kind of glad we missed a shot here. Wilson would come much cheaper and may be just as good or better.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm kind of glad we missed a shot here. Wilson would come much cheaper and may be just as good or better.

 

Unfortunately, half the league needs more pitching and the options just got a little thinner.

[davell]

True, but it also takes the Yankees away from some of these other guys as well. I doubt they'll be huge players for Wilson now personally. Probably not Darvish either. Obviously, they have money to spend other teams don't have. But almost 25 mill per for CC should help limit them somewhat, if you ask me.