Who hangs up first?

[Backtobanks]

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017). The ultimate salary dump trade.

[EpsteinCubs]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

[Sammy Sofa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGh1d3qmhWY

[dew1679666265]

I'd much rather have Soriano/Z than Lackey/Crawford. Z's contract runs out after next year and Soriano's runs out after 2014. Lackey's runs out after 2014 and Crawford's runs out after 2017.

 

Basically we're adding years to Z's contract (through 2014) and signing the Soriano deal all over again, only for a few million less for a few years. I don't know that the Red Sox would do it either, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I were the Cubs.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd much rather have Soriano/Z than Lackey/Crawford. Z's contract runs out after next year and Soriano's runs out after 2014. Lackey's runs out after 2014 and Crawford's runs out after 2017.

 

Basically we're adding years to Z's contract (through 2014) and signing the Soriano deal all over again, only for a few million less for a few years. I don't know that the Red Sox would do it either, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I were the Cubs.

 

You're also getting the two better players.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd much rather have Soriano/Z than Lackey/Crawford. Z's contract runs out after next year and Soriano's runs out after 2014. Lackey's runs out after 2014 and Crawford's runs out after 2017.

 

Basically we're adding years to Z's contract (through 2014) and signing the Soriano deal all over again, only for a few million less for a few years. I don't know that the Red Sox would do it either, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I were the Cubs.

 

You're also getting the two better players.

 

Yeah, no kidding. You're basically eating the Lackey contract if you have to to have LF locked down for the next 6 years by Crawford.

[dew1679666265]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

 

Crawford's contract gets better if the Red Sox send some money over, but purely on each contract as it is now I don't think Crawford's is that much better than Soriano's. Crawford has more value than Soriano right this minute yes, but he's already 30 and is signed for the next six years at more money each year (I think) than any one of Soriano's.

 

I could see the argument that it's better to push back the awful years that are inevitable for both players, but the risk is that there will be more (both in terms of cost and length) for Crawford.

[jersey cubs fan]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

 

Crawford's contract gets better if the Red Sox send some money over, but purely on each contract as it is now I don't think Crawford's is that much better than Soriano's. Crawford has more value than Soriano right this minute yes, but he's already 30 and is signed for the next six years at more money each year (I think) than any one of Soriano's.

 

I could see the argument that it's better to push back the awful years that are inevitable for both players, but the risk is that there will be more (both in terms of cost and length) for Crawford.

 

Crawford isn't quite the predictable disaster that Soriano was.

[Sammy Sofa]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

 

Crawford's contract gets better if the Red Sox send some money over, but purely on each contract as it is now I don't think Crawford's is that much better than Soriano's. Crawford has more value than Soriano right this minute yes, but he's already 30 and is signed for the next six years at more money each year (I think) than any one of Soriano's.

 

I could see the argument that it's better to push back the awful years that are inevitable for both players, but the risk is that there will be more (both in terms of cost and length) for Crawford.

 

Crawford isn't quite the predictable disaster that Soriano was.

 

Right. Doesn't have the "highs" that Soriano was once able to achieve, but much less of a flawed hitter and a much better defender. A lot of Crawford's value is going to come from his speed, but it declining isn't going to turn him into a one-dimensional player like Soriano.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'd much rather have Soriano/Z than Lackey/Crawford. Z's contract runs out after next year and Soriano's runs out after 2014. Lackey's runs out after 2014 and Crawford's runs out after 2017.

 

Basically we're adding years to Z's contract (through 2014) and signing the Soriano deal all over again, only for a few million less for a few years. I don't know that the Red Sox would do it either, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I were the Cubs.

 

You're also getting the two better players.

 

I don't know about that. I agree fully with Crawford vs. Soriano, but with Z and Lackey, Zs 2 years younger and has never had a season remotely as awful as Lackeys 2011. Lackey was also pretty rough last year. Still, I'd take the trade in a heartbeat. It also makes some sense for Boston as they're completely off the hook for Z after the 9 mil buyout after next season and Soriano after 2014, whereas Crawford and Lackey, I believe are there until '17 and '15 respectively.

 

However, Crawford also stands to make 20.5, 20.75' and 21 mil in his age 35, 36, and 37 seasons. Ugh to that, but hopefully our farm system will be so redunk by then that it won't matter.

[Backtobanks]

Let me tweak the deal:

 

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017) + Theo (no additional compensation)

[Little Slide Rooter]

Let me tweak the deal:

 

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017) + Theo (no additional compensation)

 

Take a look at Crawfords contract year by year and try again.

[EpsteinCubs]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

 

Crawford's contract gets better if the Red Sox send some money over, but purely on each contract as it is now I don't think Crawford's is that much better than Soriano's. Crawford has more value than Soriano right this minute yes, but he's already 30 and is signed for the next six years at more money each year (I think) than any one of Soriano's.

 

I could see the argument that it's better to push back the awful years that are inevitable for both players, but the risk is that there will be more (both in terms of cost and length) for Crawford.

Crawford had one bad year and he's played his whole career in the AL East. Get him over to the National League and he probably becomes a better player. Plus he brings speed that the Cubs have lacked these past few years.

[Sammy Sofa]

*CUBSGM ALERT TO FULL*

[toonsterwu]

Let me tweak the deal:

 

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017) + Theo (no additional compensation)

 

I think the Red Sox say no to that without blinking an eye. The salaries are roughly a wash for 2012 (36-34.75). In 2013, the Cubs would have an additional 17.25 million added on, but in 2014, that number, due to the 10 mil you want the Red Sox to send, would be 7.5 mil. The last three years of the Crawford deal would cost the Cubs 10.5, 10.75, and 11 mil.

 

I thought the Crawford contract was a bad idea when it happened (still not sure why some people defended that deal online as a shrewd move), but getting the two better talents, along with an upgrade at GM at that price would be worth it for us. I mean, Crawford probably won't be worth 10.5, 10.75, and 11 mil at that stage of his career (although not impossible), but considering we're getting our GM and improved production the first three years, it's probably worth it. For the Red Sox, unless they think the clubhouse issues with Lackey are that severe, they are better off asking for minor league talent and playing Lackey/Crawford. Furthermore, Crawford is still viewed as a good guy for the clubhouse, so I think they'll likely prefer to keep him around. Furthermore, Soriano makes little sense for them. He doesn't fit anywhere (they need to save DH opportunities for Youkilis), he's not good for the clubhouse, and well, he's not good.) Zambrano for Lackey would be trading one headcase for another, except Zambrano's outbursts probably outdo Lackey (not that that is a good thing for Lackey).

 

I think this is going to end up being minor leaguers or cash, but since we're talking hypotheticals, I think Lackey, 8 mil a year, Theo for Ryan Flaherty, Steve Clevenger, and Chris Carpenter makes some sense for both sides. We get our GM and a 4/5 starter at a passable 7.25 mil/year for 3 years. Red Sox save 8 mil a year, don't have a lame duck Theo year, get some infield depth to buy time for Middlebrooks, get an upper level catcher in case Lavarnaway can't stick at catcher, and a possible power pen arm to potentially replace Bard, who might replace Papelbon. It's a lot to give up, but Boston's going to want something for giving Theo his out.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Red Sox hang up first. Soriano has a far worse contract than anyone else mentioned. At least Carl Crawford still has some value.

 

Crawford's contract gets better if the Red Sox send some money over, but purely on each contract as it is now I don't think Crawford's is that much better than Soriano's. Crawford has more value than Soriano right this minute yes, but he's already 30 and is signed for the next six years at more money each year (I think) than any one of Soriano's.

 

I could see the argument that it's better to push back the awful years that are inevitable for both players, but the risk is that there will be more (both in terms of cost and length) for Crawford.

 

Even if we traded Soriano for Crawford and swapped the contracts as well, best case scenario is going back to year 1 on the Soriano contract and hoping that Crawford can give us a few years anything close to the first two Sori gave us before the inevitable decline. Even if we can get some good years out of him, I cant see things looking good when he's making 80 mil for his age 34-37 seasons.

[Backtobanks]

Let me tweak the deal:

 

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017) + Theo (no additional compensation)

 

Take a look at Crawfords contract year by year and try again.

 

I've looked at it and basically I'm asking the Red Sox to pay half his salary for the last 4 years. That will mean he will cost the Cubs about $42 million over the last 4 years in future money as opposed to 2012 money.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Let me tweak the deal:

 

Soriano + Zambrano for Lackey + Crawford + $40 million ($10 million per year from 2014 - 2017) + Theo (no additional compensation)

 

Take a look at Crawfords contract year by year and try again.

 

I've looked at it and basically I'm asking the Red Sox to pay half his salary for the last 4 years. That will mean he will cost the Cubs about $42 million over the last 4 years in future money as opposed to 2012 money.

 

Ok, assuming that they're paying for the remainder of Sorianos and Z's contracts, I suppose it could be OK for them. However, even if we do get better production out of Crawford for a few years, is paying that much for what is likely to become of Crawford in the last 4 years after we're finally off the hook for Soriano really a fair compensation? Sounds a bit steep. And if Crawford doesn't end up rebounding from 2011, it's a flat out disaster.

[dew1679666265]

You're also getting the two better players.

 

Soriano vs Crawford, yes. Lackey vs Z, I don't know.

 

Past 3 seasons WAR:

Z

2009: 3.6 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 4.6

2010: 2.3 pitching + .5 hitting = 2.8

2011: .9 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 1.9

 

Lackey

2009: 3.8 pitching + 0.0 hitting = 3.8

2010: 4.1 pitching + .2 hitting = 4.3

2011: 1.5 pitching + .1 hitting = 1.6

 

Z is also 2 years younger.

[Little Slide Rooter]

You're also getting the two better players.

 

Soriano vs Crawford, yes. Lackey vs Z, I don't know.

 

Past 3 seasons WAR:

Z

2009: 3.6 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 4.6

2010: 2.3 pitching + .5 hitting = 2.8

2011: .9 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 1.9

 

Lackey

2009: 3.8 pitching + 0.0 hitting = 3.8

2010: 4.1 pitching + .2 hitting = 4.3

2011: 1.5 pitching + .1 hitting = 1.6

 

Z is also 2 years younger.

 

Put Z in the AL and the OWAR drops significantly. In fact, as much as he enjoys hitting I don't know if he'd waive his NTC to go to the AL.

[dew1679666265]

Right. Doesn't have the "highs" that Soriano was once able to achieve, but much less of a flawed hitter and a much better defender. A lot of Crawford's value is going to come from his speed, but it declining isn't going to turn him into a one-dimensional player like Soriano.

 

Is Crawford that significantly more multi-dimensional? His career OBP (.333) is only 10 points higher than Soriano's (.323) and Soriano has a far better career SLG (.506) than Crawford (.441). Crawford's career average WAR is 3.7, while Soriano's is 2.7. Soriano has the better career wOBA (.355) than Crawford (.343) as well.

 

Defensively, for whatever stock you put in UZR/150, Soriano is a career 12.5 UZR/150 leftfielder, while Crawford is a career 13.4 UZR/150 leftfielder.

 

There's no question Crawford is the far superior player to Soriano right now, but I'm not seeing Crawford as being a significantly less risky player to decline heavily as he turns 33-37.

[dew1679666265]

Put Z in the AL and the OWAR drops significantly. In fact, as much as he enjoys hitting I don't know if he'd waive his NTC to go to the AL.

 

Clearly it would, which is a reason why the Red Sox would be less inclined to take him. However, since the Cubs will be staying in the NL, Z becomes as valuable or moreso than Lackey - especially since neither is likely to be a strong contributor going forward and we'll have Z for a shorter span.

[dew1679666265]

Crawford had one bad year and he's played his whole career in the AL East. Get him over to the National League and he probably becomes a better player. Plus he brings speed that the Cubs have lacked these past few years.

 

Speed isn't what would have put the Cubs over the top the past few years, talent is. And even if speed would help us, Crawford is 30 and that speed may start diminishing here pretty soon. At that point, he's a slightly more patient and much less powerful Soriano with (possibly) better defense.

[davearm2]

You're also getting the two better players.

 

Soriano vs Crawford, yes. Lackey vs Z, I don't know.

 

Past 3 seasons WAR:

Z

2009: 3.6 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 4.6

2010: 2.3 pitching + .5 hitting = 2.8

2011: .9 pitching + 1.0 hitting = 1.9

 

Lackey

2009: 3.8 pitching + 0.0 hitting = 3.8

2010: 4.1 pitching + .2 hitting = 4.3

2011: 1.5 pitching + .1 hitting = 1.6

 

Z is also 2 years younger.

 

Put Z in the AL and the OWAR drops significantly. In fact, as much as he enjoys hitting I don't know if he'd waive his NTC to go to the AL.

How great would it be if an AL team gave Z some light-hitting backup as his personal catcher, then DHed for the catcher and let Z hit.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

If Boston were to want even ONE of our bad contracts for Crawford I would do it, so long as Ricketts is still willing to spend and the Red Sox send some cash for the extra years/dollars we'd be taking on. I think Crawford would do really well here and in my head I think he fits the kind of athlete the Cubs would like to put on the field. The only reason a Crawford deal would suck is that we're almost done with those contracts while his is just getting started.

 

The only reason I'd be interested in Lackey is because I really like the way AL East to NL Central has worked out for a few pitchers. Personally, he's thrown like crap for two years.