Lou Retiring today

[Tracer Bullet]

it's no secret that I have wanted Hendry fired for a long time. But it seemed apparent that Lou just didn't give a crap about this team and I'm not sure this is the first year that's the case. You think Lou had great insight in his private meetings with Hendry and then just pulled the complete lack of interest during PCs? You really think I want him fired solely b/c he sounded disinterested in press conferences, goony? have you not read any posts in the thread dedicated to firing him? give me a break.

 

What? What are you even trying to say here? You make no sense.

 

did you intentionally cut out the part of your post in which you suggested I wanted lou fired b/c of a lack of interest during press conferences?

 

Cut out the part of my post? You haven't made a lick of sense here. You're rambling about the guy's passion in press conferences and how obvious it was that he mailed in this entire season and should have been sent home in February. You are making a bunch of really stupid comments. And I'm questioning them.

 

the PCs are the public displays of his lack of desire to manage. they've been questioned here for months. i've never said you'd fire him b/c of those PCs, as you posted. It's just indicative of his lack of interest in the job. you're failure to grasp that makes you seem pretty dense.

[Sammy Sofa]

See what a bad Cubs team does? It drives some people crazy.

[dew1679666265]

What good would the Cubs have derived from firing Lou this year instead of letting him make his "farewell tour?"

 

You sit Hill. You let the organization begin to move on. You demonstrate to everyone from Roast on up that you are in charge instead of constantly being in a reactionary state.

 

Hendry is supposedly very close to Lou. Besides that, he is supposed to know the mental disposition of his men. He looks like he got caught with his pants down - again.

 

He looks like he got caught with his pants down because his manager's mother took a turn for the worse and he chose to be with her? Unless Hendry himself is checking on Lou's mother's health, then the only report Hendry has is from Lou himself. If Lou said in July that his mother was doing better and that Lou would be fine the rest of the season, then I see no issue at all with Hendry staying on course. And, again, if you're worried about the Cubs' public perception here, one of the worst things they could do is fire a well-respected manager a couple months before he retires after he's announced he'll retire when his mother is sick. That's not a real employee-friendly appearance being given there.

 

And playing or not playing Hill is pretty pointless at this point. Geo was hurt and Wellington Castillo is really unlikely to be anything more than a capable backup. A couple weeks or even 6 weeks aren't going to tell us anything reliable about Castillo's ability. Playing Hill at this point is pretty pointless, but playing him doesn't make a real meaningful difference either.

[dew1679666265]

the PCs are the public displays of his lack of desire to manage. they've been questioned here for months. i've never said you'd fire him b/c of those PCs, as you posted. It's just indicative of his lack of interest in the job. you're failure to grasp that makes you seem pretty dense.

 

I couldn't tell whether he cared or not at the beginning of the year, I assumed he cared because he didn't retire at the end of last year. My belief that he cares was backed up even more when he chose to return to the team after announcing his retirement and then taking a bit of time to be with his ailing mother. If he didn't care, I see no reason why he wouldn't have just retired in July when he first announced it.

 

What specifically tells you so clearly that he hasn't cared for months?

[SouthSideRyan]

More importantly where has Roast been? Did he get spiked into a trough by an crazed fan?

[Tracer Bullet]

I said "somewhat agree with JR" - I don't want his quotes attributed to me. but this season wasn't meaningless when it started. It was certainly an uphill battle, but keeping on a manger who doesn't care before his last season isn't the sign of a well-run organization. I'm not positive that Hendry couldn't have gone to Lou in February and said "it's obvious to both of us that you don't give a crap anymore. how about we buy out this last year for $1 and you can go spend time with your family?"

 

And what tells you that Lou doesn't give a crap anymore? I'd think the fact that his mother was sick and he still chose to stick around with the team because he thought there was a slim chance to compete is a sign that he cares and still wants to win.

 

If you wanted Lou fired before the season or sometime previously, that's fine. But JR's main point was that Lou retiring now and not having been forced out a month ago is a sign that the Cubs are a terribly run organization and that they lack organizational control. If you didn't agree with that part, then what did you agree with?

 

what makes you think he decided to stick around b/c he thought there was a chance the team could compete? Are you talking when he took his leave of absence a few weeks ago and then came back? what was this team competing for then? maybe he stuck around b/c likes getting paid. maybe he enjoys the camaraderie of a ML clubhouse. maybe he thought it was honorable to try to serve out the end of his contract. there could be a lot of reasons that he likes it enough to come back that still fall short of having a real passion for your job.

 

i would have loved to have him replaced with a better manager before the season and I thought at least from very early this season that he didn't seem to care. Maybe it was the slow start or the complete tanking in June. Or Lee and Ramirez still being terrible after 2 months. But it seemed to me that he didn't have the passion that he used to have (I'm not sure he ever really had it in Chicago - I don't recall being a big fan of the hiring from the start). I don't have the quotes and links and I'm not going to dig them up. I'm sure you could flip through the fire lou thread if you really care. one example: his comment in June about not knowing that Theriot hadn't taken a walk for a month, yet he still ran him out there near the top of the lineup. that whole interaction was weird. and some/most of it is nonverbal.

 

as for JR, I agree that they've handled Lou poorly and not firing him (or working out a way for him to retire) before now. I don't having him here now is the way a well-run organization operates. i don't agree with much of the specifics about firing him when he originally took his leave of absence. I think he should have been gone before that.

[Sammy Sofa]

Maybe Lou simply isn't a good manager.

[Tracer Bullet]

Maybe Lou simply isn't a good manager.

 

maybe

[Sammy Sofa]

Probably.

 

Definitely.

[Tracer Bullet]

Probably.

 

Definitely.

 

even more reason to have fired him long ago (or not hired him at all).

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, yeah, the latter is the smart option, hence why so many of us here were dreading his hire in the first place.

[dew1679666265]

what makes you think he decided to stick around b/c he thought there was a chance the team could compete? Are you talking when he took his leave of absence a few weeks ago and then came back? what was this team competing for then? maybe he stuck around b/c likes getting paid. maybe he enjoys the camaraderie of a ML clubhouse. maybe he thought it was honorable to try to serve out the end of his contract. there could be a lot of reasons that he likes it enough to come back that still fall short of having a real passion for your job.

 

From Bruce Miles' blog:

 

I asked Lou if he thought about going home when he announced his retirment a few weeks ago.

 

"No," he said. "I thought that I could finish out the season. I thought at that time that we could still win a division. It hasnt worked out that way. At the same, time my mother's health came into the equation and things have changed. But, no, I didnt think that going home in, when was it? July. Its only been a month. A month ago. A lot of things have changed in a month.

 

i would have loved to have him replaced with a better manager before the season and I thought at least from very early this season that he didn't seem to care. Maybe it was the slow start or the complete tanking in June. Or Lee and Ramirez still being terrible after 2 months. But it seemed to me that he didn't have the passion that he used to have (I'm not sure he ever really had it in Chicago - I don't recall being a big fan of the hiring from the start). I don't have the quotes and links and I'm not going to dig them up. I'm sure you could flip through the fire lou thread if you really care. one example: his comment in June about not knowing that Theriot hadn't taken a walk for a month, yet he still ran him out there near the top of the lineup. that whole interaction was weird. and some/most of it is nonverbal.

 

Not knowing Theriot hasn't taken a walk in a month is pretty weird. I've wondered about Lou all season, but I don't know that the answer is he doesn't care. Frankly, I don't know what the answer is, but if he didn't care he's had plenty of opportunities to pack it in and leave and he hasn't. He may not care, but I don't think it's as obvious as you seem to and certainly not obvious enough for the Cubs to fire him simply because you feel like he doesn't care.

 

as for JR, I agree that they've handled Lou poorly and not firing him (or working out a way for him to retire) before now. I don't having him here now is the way a well-run organization operates. i don't agree with much of the specifics about firing him when he originally took his leave of absence. I think he should have been gone before that.

 

The poor season we're having is more of a sign of how well the organization is being run than whether or not Lou is still the manager of the team.

[Tracer Bullet]

what makes you think he decided to stick around b/c he thought there was a chance the team could compete? Are you talking when he took his leave of absence a few weeks ago and then came back? what was this team competing for then? maybe he stuck around b/c likes getting paid. maybe he enjoys the camaraderie of a ML clubhouse. maybe he thought it was honorable to try to serve out the end of his contract. there could be a lot of reasons that he likes it enough to come back that still fall short of having a real passion for your job.

 

From Bruce Miles' blog:

 

I asked Lou if he thought about going home when he announced his retirment a few weeks ago.

 

"No," he said. "I thought that I could finish out the season. I thought at that time that we could still win a division. It hasnt worked out that way. At the same, time my mother's health came into the equation and things have changed. But, no, I didnt think that going home in, when was it? July. Its only been a month. A month ago. A lot of things have changed in a month.

 

i would have loved to have him replaced with a better manager before the season and I thought at least from very early this season that he didn't seem to care. Maybe it was the slow start or the complete tanking in June. Or Lee and Ramirez still being terrible after 2 months. But it seemed to me that he didn't have the passion that he used to have (I'm not sure he ever really had it in Chicago - I don't recall being a big fan of the hiring from the start). I don't have the quotes and links and I'm not going to dig them up. I'm sure you could flip through the fire lou thread if you really care. one example: his comment in June about not knowing that Theriot hadn't taken a walk for a month, yet he still ran him out there near the top of the lineup. that whole interaction was weird. and some/most of it is nonverbal.

 

Not knowing Theriot hasn't taken a walk in a month is pretty weird. I've wondered about Lou all season, but I don't know that the answer is he doesn't care. Frankly, I don't know what the answer is, but if he didn't care he's had plenty of opportunities to pack it in and leave and he hasn't. He may not care, but I don't think it's as obvious as you seem to and certainly not obvious enough for the Cubs to fire him simply because you feel like he doesn't care.

 

as for JR, I agree that they've handled Lou poorly and not firing him (or working out a way for him to retire) before now. I don't having him here now is the way a well-run organization operates. i don't agree with much of the specifics about firing him when he originally took his leave of absence. I think he should have been gone before that.

 

The poor season we're having is more of a sign of how well the organization is being run than whether or not Lou is still the manager of the team.

 

i didn't suggest this. jersey did. talk to him.

 

oh, and he sure looks happy to be gone http://a.imageshack.us/img715/578/loupinellaisonaboatonab.jpg

[dew1679666265]

certainly not obvious enough for the Cubs to fire him simply because you feel like he doesn't care.

 

i didn't suggest this. jersey did. talk to him.

 

What did you mean by this then:

 

It was certainly an uphill battle, but keeping on a manger who doesn't care before his last season isn't the sign of a well-run organization.

 

The only qualifier you have in there for why the Cubs are not well-run because they didn't fire Lou is because you feel like he didn't care before the season started.

[Tracer Bullet]

certainly not obvious enough for the Cubs to fire him simply because you feel like he doesn't care.

 

i didn't suggest this. jersey did. talk to him.

 

What did you mean by this then:

 

It was certainly an uphill battle, but keeping on a manger who doesn't care before his last season isn't the sign of a well-run organization.

 

The only qualifier you have in there for why the Cubs are not well-run because they didn't fire Lou is because you feel like he didn't care before the season started.

 

I've spent plenty of time in the fire lou thread and I'm fairly certain I was against his hiring and stated as much. I'm not going to identify every reason I didn't want him hired or wanted him fired in every post/thread in which he's discussed. the sentence you pulled out is taken out of any context, but the conclusion (keeping him on is not the sign of a well-run organization) assumes Lou didn't care before the season started. it's one sentence in dozens of posts I've made about the subject. parsing it to this degree is a little mind-numbing, don't you think?

 

beyond that, it's an insane twist of my argument to suggest that I think the cubs should fire him "simply because feel like he doesn't care."

[dew1679666265]

I've spent plenty of time in the fire lou thread and I'm fairly certain I was against his hiring and stated as much. I'm not going to identify every reason I didn't want him hired or wanted him fired in every post/thread in which he's discussed. the sentence you pulled out is taken out of any context, but the conclusion (keeping him on is not the sign of a well-run organization) assumes Lou didn't care before the season started. it's one sentence in dozens of posts I've made about the subject. parsing it to this degree is a little mind-numbing, don't you think?

 

beyond that, it's an insane twist of my argument to suggest that I think the cubs should fire him "simply because feel like he doesn't care."

 

Here's your whole post:

 

I said "somewhat agree with JR" - I don't want his quotes attributed to me. but this season wasn't meaningless when it started. It was certainly an uphill battle, but keeping on a manger who doesn't care before his last season isn't the sign of a well-run organization. I'm not positive that Hendry couldn't have gone to Lou in February and said "it's obvious to both of us that you don't give a crap anymore. how about we buy out this last year for $1 and you can go spend time with your family?"

 

I think this whole line of debate by you is out of character because you've based it all (in this thread) on your perception that Lou doesn't care. You don't normally make arguments like that and that's why I've carried the debate on. I know you have other issues with him, but found it odd that you so strongly carried on the "Lou doesn't care" point so much in this thread.

 

I still don't get the idea that a well-run organization would have fired Lou by now. Maybe before the season, but very few organizations are going to fire a manager in the middle of an awful season knowing that he's announced he'll retire after the year. There's simply no real benefit to be gained by it and it'd be a PR black eye if the media chose to pick it up.

[Tracer Bullet]

I've spent plenty of time in the fire lou thread and I'm fairly certain I was against his hiring and stated as much. I'm not going to identify every reason I didn't want him hired or wanted him fired in every post/thread in which he's discussed. the sentence you pulled out is taken out of any context, but the conclusion (keeping him on is not the sign of a well-run organization) assumes Lou didn't care before the season started. it's one sentence in dozens of posts I've made about the subject. parsing it to this degree is a little mind-numbing, don't you think?

 

beyond that, it's an insane twist of my argument to suggest that I think the cubs should fire him "simply because feel like he doesn't care."

 

Here's your whole post:

 

I said "somewhat agree with JR" - I don't want his quotes attributed to me. but this season wasn't meaningless when it started. It was certainly an uphill battle, but keeping on a manger who doesn't care before his last season isn't the sign of a well-run organization. I'm not positive that Hendry couldn't have gone to Lou in February and said "it's obvious to both of us that you don't give a crap anymore. how about we buy out this last year for $1 and you can go spend time with your family?"

 

I think this whole line of debate by you is out of character because you've based it all (in this thread) on your perception that Lou doesn't care. You don't normally make arguments like that and that's why I've carried the debate on. I know you have other issues with him, but found it odd that you so strongly carried on the "Lou doesn't care" point so much in this thread.

 

I still don't get the idea that a well-run organization would have fired Lou by now. Maybe before the season, but very few organizations are going to fire a manager in the middle of an awful season knowing that he's announced he'll retire after the year. There's simply no real benefit to be gained by it and it'd be a PR black eye if the media chose to pick it up.

 

if Lou does care, then N&G is correct and he's become a terrible manager. while he's not abusing pitchers, he's making crazy decisions. I think the whole discussion about Theriot and his complete lack of any understanding of his own team really surprised me. So I looked back at some of the links to other PCs and he really has this look about him like he just wants to be anywhere else and his comments and in-game actions, taken with his body language and age (and likely knowledge in March that this wasn't a 100-game winner), strongly suggest to me that he's just going through the motions. I wasn't a fan of his hiring, I wanted him fired at least last year, and have wanted him gone all season (in favor of letting AT take over for several months).

 

As for my post, it was in response to your question about why firing Lou in a "meaningless season" is so important. My response was aimed at the fact that it wasn't meaningless until the last few weeks and back to June at the earliest. I think Lou deserved to be fired before it became meaningless. Mostly because I think he's now a bad manager (not sure for how long, I haven't followed his career closely), but his lack of interest is one factor that contributes to my wanting him fired.

[dew1679666265]

if Lou does care, then N&G is correct and he's become a terrible manager. while he's not abusing pitchers, he's making crazy decisions. I think the whole discussion about Theriot and his complete lack of any understanding of his own team really surprised me. So I looked back at some of the links to other PCs and he really has this look about him like he just wants to be anywhere else and his comments and in-game actions, taken with his body language and age (and likely knowledge in March that this wasn't a 100-game winner), strongly suggest to me that he's just going through the motions. I wasn't a fan of his hiring, I wanted him fired at least last year, and have wanted him gone all season (in favor of letting AT take over for several months).

 

Purely on his in-game decision making and lineup structure, he's been bewildering at best. Theriot shouldn't have led off as much as he has, Soto probably should have started a little more than he has and I don't like that Z has been relegated to the bullpen for periods (though that may be as much Hendry as Lou).

 

I don't feel comfortable saying the man doesn't care, though. He could have easily retired after last year and even into spring training this year and then again after his mother became ill (or worse). That he didn't makes me think he believed this team could win and wanted to be a part of that. I have no explanation why he didn't know Theriot hadn't walked for a month, however.

 

As for my post, it was in response to your question about why firing Lou in a "meaningless season" is so important. My response was aimed at the fact that it wasn't meaningless until the last few weeks and back to June at the earliest. I think Lou deserved to be fired before it became meaningless. Mostly because I think he's now a bad manager (not sure for how long, I haven't followed his career closely), but his lack of interest is one factor that contributes to my wanting him fired.

 

It's been meaningless since Lou announced his retirement. JR argued that it was important that the Cubs fire him then and I said it really wasn't because at that point the playoffs were out of reach and we were a bad team. Firing Lou would not have shown that the Cubs were any more of a well-run organization than they appear now.

 

If that's not what you were supporting then there's been a miscommunication.

[Soonernation]

no one knows when she's going to die. but that's not what I said. does it surprise you that a 90-year-old is dying? Lou completely didn't see that coming when he signed a 4-year-contract?

 

This is a bizarre tangent. Yes, I'm sure Lou Piniella was ware of the fact that his very old mother would someday die. Now it's come to the point that his mother likely is dying and he'd rather spend his time with her ass opposed to sitting through the last 6 weeks of his contract managing a truly wretched baseball team. I'm not sure why anyone would fault him for that.

 

Cause evidently there are quite a few people on this board that have no common sense; does anyone really think that this team would have been a contender if Lou had retired before the season? The negativity on this board amazes me