Brenley vs. Soriano (Steve Stone redux?)

[abuck1220]

Considering that being able to run is about 35% of what makes him valuable at all, it's worth commenting on.

 

 

if you truly believe that, you're in for a disappointing next six seasons.

[Roast]

For the record, that thing in the tribune about automatic ejection is incorrect.

 

Our boss was livid that that somehow made it in there.

[biittner77]

Considering that being able to run is about 35% of what makes him valuable at all, it's worth commenting on.

 

 

if you truly believe that, you're in for a disappointing next six seasons.

 

I do and I am. Which is why I've decided to get ahead of the trend and start hating him now.

[RynoRules]

The whole article has some signs for hope:

Does Brenly at all regret the "dart" comment?

 

"Part of my job is to entertain up here," he replied. "I thought it was a funny line. I'm sure some people probably took it the wrong way. I could've said the same thing and worded it a little differently, but I think everybody got the gist of what I was saying."

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-080527-alfonso-soriano-defense-chicago-cubs,1,204570.story

 

The criticism was warranted; the cheap shot was not. His point was well-made without the sophmoric "dart" comment.

 

With respect to his running, I have noticed that he is loafing-it around the bases (at least relative to what he looks like at full strength). But are we really criticizing him for being hurt?

[Laura]

For the record, that thing in the tribune about automatic ejection is incorrect.

 

Our boss was livid that that somehow made it in there.

 

Did they really think that it wouldn't?

 

People were calling the Score from the bleachers.

[radarluv1]

it was irritating that they kept showing the pirate 'homerun' to LF, saying it should've been a routine catch. robbing a HR is never going to be routine. and if the umps had reversed the call, they would've given the batter a triple and he likely scores anyway.

[Tracer Bullet]

it was irritating that they kept showing the pirate 'homerun' to LF, saying it should've been a routine catch. robbing a HR is never going to be routine. and if the umps had reversed the call, they would've given the batter a triple and he likely scores anyway.

 

"Robbing" a HR when the wall isn't brick and is only about as high as the top of your head and the ball lands on the front of the top of the wall is more routine than many catches OFs make. Soriano just did a horrible job (not finding the wall, bad timing on the job, etc). That's a play he should have made.

[Pushfrog98]

it was irritating that they kept showing the pirate 'homerun' to LF, saying it should've been a routine catch. robbing a HR is never going to be routine. and if the umps had reversed the call, they would've given the batter a triple and he likely scores anyway.

Likely scores and Actually scores are worlds apart in close games.

[Pushfrog98]

With respect to his running, I have noticed that he is loafing-it around the bases (at least relative to what he looks like at full strength). But are we really criticizing him for being hurt?

I'm not criticizing him for being hurt... but I AM criticizing him for continually lying and saying he is 100% healthy when it is obvious to EVERYBODY that he isn't. Even my coworkers (who are ALL cardinal fans) were like, "What's up with Soriano... he couldn't even score from 2nd on a base hit!"

 

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Pushfrog98

[Sammy Sofa]

it was irritating that they kept showing the pirate 'homerun' to LF, saying it should've been a routine catch. robbing a HR is never going to be routine. and if the umps had reversed the call, they would've given the batter a triple and he likely scores anyway.

 

"Robbing" a HR when the wall isn't brick and is only about as high as the top of your head and the ball lands on the front of the top of the wall is more routine than many catches OFs make. Soriano just did a horrible job (not finding the wall, bad timing on the job, etc). That's a play he should have made.

 

Yeah, in the long run, I'm much more pissed about that play than the dropped catch. The dropped catch had basically nothing to do with his routes or speed or effort out there (though I'm sure wrigley23 is going to start screaming "HIS EYES ARE GONE!!!" any day now) and everyting to do with the sun, but that "HR" he just gave up on. That's unacceptable.

[Sammy Sofa]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

[RynoRules]

 

 

The criticism was warranted; the cheap shot was not. His point was well-made without the sophmoric "dart" comment.

 

With respect to his running, I have noticed that he is loafing-it around the bases (at least relative to what he looks like at full strength). But are we really criticizing him for being hurt?

I'm not criticizing him for being hurt... but I AM criticizing him for continually lying and saying he is 100% healthy when it is obvious to EVERYBODY that he isn't. Even my coworkers (who are ALL cardinal fans) were like, "What's up with Soriano... he couldn't even score from 2nd on a base hit!"

 

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

I really don't care where he hits in the order. I care more about if his injury is hampering his range in LF and preventing him from taking an extra base where appropriate.

 

As far as his public proclomations, I don't much care if he lies to us or the Cubs staff about his health. He wants to play everyday and earn his money - I have no problem with that. T

 

he Cubs staff sees the same thing we do. I guess as long as he is hitting they figure he's worth keeping out there. He's also walked three or four times in the last two games, which is encouraging.

Edited May 28, 2008 by RynoRules

[Pushfrog98]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

[Sammy Sofa]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

[Tracer Bullet]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

[Sammy Sofa]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

 

Fair enough. I typically don't notice these things because I'm of the way out view that stealing bases (outside of defensive indifference) is usually a worthless throwback anachronism. Besides, if we're furstrated that he's not scoring on hits by Lee, do we really want him stealing bases? I know a lot of people are hung up on speed, but for me, so long as he can produce with the bat, I don't care if he never steals another base again. Hell, I'd be happy if this entire team never stole another base again.

[abuck1220]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

 

and it came back to kill the cubs, costing them the season.

 

so if people want a basestealer to bat leadoff, who do you want? because theriot sucks at stealing bases.

[Pushfrog98]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

That is the scenario that I was "spotting" again. And it didn't end up costing the cubs that time... And also, I don't believe stolen bases are as valuable as they were in the past, but if the game is close and you have the opportunity to get into scoring position... then do it. Be smart about it, but do it. Don't pull a Corey Patterson and try to steal 3rd with 2 outs and get thrown out to end the game, but at least try to get yourself into scoring position to give your team the best chance to win.

[Tracer Bullet]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

 

and it came back to kill the cubs, costing them the season.

 

so if people want a basestealer to bat leadoff, who do you want? because theriot sucks at stealing bases.

 

take it easy there killer. I was just trying to add the context to the situation pushfrog brought up. And, as I said, it seemed clear that Soriano wasn't 100% b/c that's a situation he'd be running in. I didn't say anything about wanting a basestealer hitting 1st. I hate that we try to steal so many bases. So why don't we try to reign in the overreaction just a tad.

[Sammy Sofa]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

That is the scenario that I was "spotting" again. And it didn't end up costing the cubs that time... And also, I don't believe stolen bases are as valuable as they were in the past, but if the game is close and you have the opportunity to get into scoring position... then do it. Be smart about it, but do it. Don't pull a Corey Patterson and try to steal 3rd with 2 outs and get thrown out to end the game, but at least try to get yourself into scoring position to give your team the best chance to win.

 

But what if you play on a team that as a whole really, really, really stinks at basestealing, but is suprisingly very good at hitting? At this point, the only person I'd tolerate attempting to steal on this team is Fukudome. Too bad the best basestealer by far is wasting away in the minors "fixing his swing."

[biittner77]

I don't care about stolen bases but I'd like to see players be able to score from 2nd on a base hit or first on a double.

[Pushfrog98]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

That is the scenario that I was "spotting" again. And it didn't end up costing the cubs that time... And also, I don't believe stolen bases are as valuable as they were in the past, but if the game is close and you have the opportunity to get into scoring position... then do it. Be smart about it, but do it. Don't pull a Corey Patterson and try to steal 3rd with 2 outs and get thrown out to end the game, but at least try to get yourself into scoring position to give your team the best chance to win.

 

But what if you play on a team that as a whole really, really, really stinks at basestealing, but is suprisingly very good at hitting? At this point, the only person I'd tolerate attempting to steal on this team is Fukudome. Too bad the best basestealer by far is wasting away in the minors "fixing his swing."

I do agree with you for the most part. In that situation, just hit the runners over, manufacture the runs, etc.

 

Speaking of our best base stealer who is fixing his swing, how's he doing back in Iowa?

[Sammy Sofa]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

That is the scenario that I was "spotting" again. And it didn't end up costing the cubs that time... And also, I don't believe stolen bases are as valuable as they were in the past, but if the game is close and you have the opportunity to get into scoring position... then do it. Be smart about it, but do it. Don't pull a Corey Patterson and try to steal 3rd with 2 outs and get thrown out to end the game, but at least try to get yourself into scoring position to give your team the best chance to win.

 

But what if you play on a team that as a whole really, really, really stinks at basestealing, but is suprisingly very good at hitting? At this point, the only person I'd tolerate attempting to steal on this team is Fukudome. Too bad the best basestealer by far is wasting away in the minors "fixing his swing."

I do agree with you for the most part. In that situation, just hit the runners over, manufacture the runs, etc.

 

Speaking of our best base stealer who is fixing his swing, how's he doing back in Iowa?

 

Awful.

[hardcorecubfan]

I'm fine replacing Brenley with Grace.

 

NOOOO, have you ever heard Grace for a 9 inning game. I wanted to shoot myself. He is good for two inning and a cpl of jokes but........

[Tracer Bullet]

If he is not healthy and cannot run, he should NOT be hitting 1st. Granted, we don't have many other solid options there, but at least put someone who is going to steal a base when the pitcher is giving it to them.

 

Can we please stop acting like this team is good at stealing bases and clamoring that they do it more often? They can barely lay down a decent bunt.

I think that's one thing we all agree on... being fast doesn't equal being good at stealing bases... but when the first baseman isn't holding you, and the pitcher isn't checking (and is basically giving you 2nd base) and you don't take it... that's different.

 

And you're spotting this exact no-doubt situation over and over again?

 

My guess is he's referring to last night. The fact that he didn't steal 2nd with Broxton on the mound, runners on the corners, and 1 out seems to indicate that he's not that close to 100%.

 

Fair enough. I typically don't notice these things because I'm of the way out view that stealing bases (outside of defensive indifference) is usually a worthless throwback anachronism. Besides, if we're furstrated that he's not scoring on hits by Lee, do we really want him stealing bases? I know a lot of people are hung up on speed, but for me, so long as he can produce with the bat, I don't care if he never steals another base again. Hell, I'd be happy if this entire team never stole another base again.

 

I generally agree. It just seemed like a good opportunity to get out of the double play with Fontenot batting. A healthy Soriano could take that base off Broxton (who was throwing mid-90s gas, but Martin had to dive more than once to catch them b/c of terrible location). That's one of the few times where it would have made a lot of sense to take 2nd (if healthy, we have a fast runner/decent base stealer, pitcher with slow delivery and bad location, C that just entered the game, weak hitter up with our best hitter on deck, 1 out and it would have put 2 in scoring position and avoided the double play). There aren't many situations in which I'd like to see the Cubs steal, but that was one.