Why Does Everyone Hate Pie?

[David]

The notion of five tools is valid as long as you include patience/eye as one of the tools, you give considerably more weight to this tool and the power tool, you give fielding and throwing arm considerably less weight, and you give speed almost no value at all. Contact is somewhere behind patience and power and ahead of fielding and throwing arm. Really, what you have there are six tools. And one of them is almost completely worthless and extremely overrated within the context of the others.

 

In other words, the "five tool" thing is a bunch of crap.

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

When has anybody ever been influenced by anything he said?

 

 

 

wait, I thought YOU were goony???

 

edit: jersey was referring to goony

Edited December 20, 2007 by minnesotacubsfan

[David]

 

When has anybody ever been influenced by anything he said?

 

 

 

wait, I thought YOU were goony???

 

:-k

[minnesotacubsfan]

The notion of five tools is valid as long as you include patience/eye as one of the tools, you give considerably more weight to this tool and the power tool, you give fielding and throwing arm considerably less weight, and you give speed almost no value at all. Contact is somewhere behind patience and power and ahead of fielding and throwing arm. Really, what you have there are six tools. And one of them is almost completely worthless and extremely overrated within the context of the others.

 

In other words, the "five tool" thing is a bunch of crap.

 

maybe we should create a new designation, like "five tool +"

[David]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

 

tell juan pierre that

[David]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

 

tell juan pierre that

 

 

Juan Pierre sucks because he can't hit. The lack of a throwing arm is just icing on the big fat rotten cake that is his offensive game.

Edited December 20, 2007 by David

[KingCubsFan]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

When I said five tool, I wasn't giving weight to one tool or another. When someone is called a five tool prospect, that just means they possess above average talent in every physical skill, which is rare for a baseball player. It doesn't mean they'll be a good baseball player, it just means they're superior physically and can do more things on the field. Of course, they still have to be able to hit to be valuable

[David]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

When I said five tool, I wasn't giving weight to one tool or another. When someone is called a five tool prospect, that just means they possess above average talent in every physical skill, which is rare for a baseball player. It doesn't mean they'll be a good baseball player, it just means they're superior physically and can do more things on the field. Of course, they still have to be able to hit to be valuable

 

 

I'm not really referring to or arguing against anything you said. Just ranting about how stupid the "five-tool player" notion is.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

When I said five tool, I wasn't giving weight to one tool or another. When someone is called a five tool prospect, that just means they possess above average talent in every physical skill, which is rare for a baseball player. It doesn't mean they'll be a good baseball player, it just means they're superior physically and can do more things on the field. Of course, they still have to be able to hit to be valuable

 

 

I'm not really referring to or arguing against anything you said. Just ranting about how stupid the "five-tool player" notion is.

 

I dont think its stupid, but I do think promoting players on that notion is stupid

[minnesotacubsfan]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

 

tell juan pierre that

 

 

Juan Pierre sucks because he can't hit. The lack of a throwing arm is just icing on the big fat rotten cake that is his offensive game.

 

but if he had an arm, he might have some value-which is what i was trying to get to

[David]

How is it not stupid?

[David]

Actually, throwing arm is just as out of place in there as speed is. It's just a dumb way to evaluate players. The hitting tools are so far beyond the others in importance that it's just ridiculous.

 

tell juan pierre that

 

 

Juan Pierre sucks because he can't hit. The lack of a throwing arm is just icing on the big fat rotten cake that is his offensive game.

 

but if he had an arm, he might have some value-which is what i was trying to get to

 

No, he'd still suck. That's the point I'm getting to. Even if he had a gold glove on top of that arm, he'd still suck because he can't hit is way out of a paper bag. That's the whole point of what I'm saying about the five tools.

 

A couple of them are so much more important than the rest that it's not even worth putting them together like that.

Edited December 20, 2007 by David

[minnesotacubsfan]

How is it not stupid?

 

pointing out the physical ability of a player and suggesting he has potential isnt stupid

 

promoting him soley on that basis is

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

A couple of them are so much more important than the rest that it's not even worth putting them together like that.

 

like adam everett?

[David]

How is it not stupid?

 

pointing out the physical ability of a player and suggesting he has potential isnt stupid

 

promoting him soley on that basis is

 

 

That's not the stupid part. The stupid part is that the tools are dumb, seemingly chosen completely arbitrarily, and there's an incredible disparity among them in importance.

[David]

 

A couple of them are so much more important than the rest that it's not even worth putting them together like that.

 

like adam everett?

 

What?

[David]

I'll assume you're talking about the extreme anomaly that is Adam Everett in that his fielding ability outweighs his worthlessness with a bat. His glove makes him an above average player despite his terrible bat. He just so happens to be so much better than everyone else at fielding his position that this is the case.

 

That's extremely rare.

Edited December 20, 2007 by David

[Derwood]

i hate Felix Pie because there are roughly 87 threads about him on this board

[minnesotacubsfan]

 

A couple of them are so much more important than the rest that it's not even worth putting them together like that.

 

like adam everett?

 

What?

 

 

I meant to quote this part of your statement:

 

 

"Even if he had a gold glove on top of that arm, he'd still suck because he can't hit is way out of a paper bag"

 

basically saying that like Everett, would his defense (if he had a good arm) make up for his hitting?

 

its really more of a question

[minnesotacubsfan]

How is it not stupid?

 

pointing out the physical ability of a player and suggesting he has potential isnt stupid

 

promoting him soley on that basis is

 

 

That's not the stupid part. The stupid part is that the tools are dumb, seemingly chosen completely arbitrarily, and there's an incredible disparity among them in importance.

 

5 tools:

 

arm

speed

batting ave

defense

batting power

 

granted, the two tools "speed" and "defense" really could be grouped together, as speed can help ones defense especially in the outfield, and the fact the tools have no way to be weighted against each other, I still think the notion of defining players on sometype of scale has some validity

[David]

I'm really not sure what the point of re-listing the tools was?

[minnesotacubsfan]

I'm really not sure what the point of re-listing the tools was?

 

 

I was pointing out that the "tools" themselves may be stupid and may need to be adjusted for today's game, but the idea of understanding players on a "five tool" kind of notion isnt

[jersey cubs fan]

If Colvin can come in and be average after the lines he's put up, then Pie must be the next Beltran. At this point, I just see all the names you listed as equivalent to Ryan Theriot at SS. Bench players that shouldn't be starters. I guess that's why I think Pie is important to the team's future

 

I'm not sure how Colvin = average makes Pie = Beltran.

 

That makes no sense.

 

The point was that Pie and Soto are not equally "untouchable" because Soto is far more difficult to replace. Competent catching is going to be harder for this team to find than competent CF play.

[minnesotacubsfan]

...play.

 

I have to ask, are you NOT goony? I really thought you were, and if not my appologies to you both...