What if... Pie/Marshall/??

[Keener98]

I've posted several times that Marquis is not a bad 5th stater. Sure he sucks a lot of times he pitches, however he is also VERY good on several occasions. He has few starts that fall in the middle, but most of the time it's either one or the other. I understand why it is frustrating, but for a FIFTH, i repeat, FIFTH, starter he is not bad. His contract is quite risky, but not as bad as most people on here make it out to be. It's a double edge sword, but Marquis IMO has been a solid 5th stater.

 

Hes not a 5th starter, hes a number 3.

 

No he is not. He is 4th at best in this rotation.

 

 

 

Zambrano Lilly Marquis Hill Marshall is how the rotation is set. Hes number 3 in the rotation and is paid like a number 3, its not that difficult to see.

LOL what a reach.

 

Earlier in this thread you made a big point of how silly it is to harp on a guy's spot in the rotation.

 

Now you're clinging to it as your argument crumbles with each new post showing how wrong you are.

 

Look Marquis was signed to eat innings and provide a league-averageish ERA at the back of the rotation, behind Z, Lilly, Hill at least, and possibly behind another developing youngster (Guzman, Marshall being the top two contenders at the time Marquis was signed).

 

Wanna argue that Marquis is not providing exactly what he was signed to provide?

 

That $7M sure seems like money well spent when you consider what this team suffered through last year using unproven/unready kids at the back end when there was nobody like Marquis around.

 

Is reading really that hard for you? Everybody else was commenting on the spot in the rotation that is the only reason I said anything, but you can keep picking and choosing little bits and pieces to try making your argument. Marquis isnt eating innings either so that argument is bs.

[Guest]

Let's keep the arguing clean, guys. No need to be insulting.

[Mizzou]

I've posted several times that Marquis is not a bad 5th stater. Sure he sucks a lot of times he pitches, however he is also VERY good on several occasions. He has few starts that fall in the middle, but most of the time it's either one or the other. I understand why it is frustrating, but for a FIFTH, i repeat, FIFTH, starter he is not bad. His contract is quite risky, but not as bad as most people on here make it out to be. It's a double edge sword, but Marquis IMO has been a solid 5th stater.

 

Hes not a 5th starter, hes a number 3.

 

No he is not. He is 4th at best in this rotation.

 

 

 

Zambrano Lilly Marquis Hill Marshall is how the rotation is set. Hes number 3 in the rotation and is paid like a number 3, its not that difficult to see.

LOL what a reach.

 

Earlier in this thread you made a big point of how silly it is to harp on a guy's spot in the rotation.

 

Now you're clinging to it as your argument crumbles with each new post showing how wrong you are.

 

Look Marquis was signed to eat innings and provide a league-averageish ERA at the back of the rotation, behind Z, Lilly, Hill at least, and possibly behind another developing youngster (Guzman, Marshall being the top two contenders at the time Marquis was signed).

 

Wanna argue that Marquis is not providing exactly what he was signed to provide?

 

That $7M sure seems like money well spent when you consider what this team suffered through last year using unproven/unready kids at the back end when there was nobody like Marquis around.

 

Is reading really that hard for you? Everybody else was commenting on the spot in the rotation that is the only reason I said anything, but you can keep picking and choosing little bits and pieces to try making your argument. Marquis isnt eating innings either so that argument is bs.

Wrong. Yet again.

 

There are 16 teams in the NL -- 5 starters per team, so 90 starters in the NL. Marquis is 30th in the league in innings pitched. So, yes, he is doing a good job of eating innings.

 

Let me ask you an honest question, do you have something personal against Marquis? You've made so many bad arguments in this thread, that I can't help but wonder.

[Guest]

Again, on all sides of this argument and with everyone involved, let's not make it personal.

[Keener98]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

[Mizzou]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

And two-thirds of the league asks more out of its bullpen. On the whole, Marquis is doing just fine in terms of the number of innings he pitches.

[davearm]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

[Drew Doughty]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

[Rob]

Health is a skill.

[Keener98]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

 

Thanks Anze, I thought I was writing in Japanese since a few people were having troubles understanding.

[davearm]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

Well then the gist of his post is misguided.

 

I'm sure he wants to twist the argument to focus just on average innings per start, but that doesn't make it appropriate.

 

Look each team has ~1500 innings that have to be pitched over the course of a 162 game schedule. The only question at hand here is how big of a piece of that pie is Marquis biting off.

 

And the answer is that Marquis has helped the Cubs more than the guys that average a few tenths of an inning more per start, but have missed multiple starts. When a guy can't take the ball, the team has to scramble to find a replacement. That takes just as much of a toll on the staff, if not more.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to call health a skill, but showing up and taking the ball every fifth day is absolutely an important part of the "innings eater" equation we're talking about here. I know you have to leave that element out if you want to get anywhere bashing Marquis, but that doesn't make it correct.

[Keener98]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

I'm sure he wants to twist the argument to focus just on average innings per start, but that doesn't make it appropriate.

 

Look each team has ~1500 innings that have to be pitched over the course of a 162 game schedule. The only question at hand here is how big of a piece of that pie is Marquis biting off.

 

And the answer is that Marquis has helped the Cubs more than the guys that average a few tenths of an inning more per start, but have missed multiple starts. When a guy can't take the ball, the team has to scramble to find a replacement. That takes just as much of a toll on the staff, if not more.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to call health a skill, but showing up and taking the ball every fifth day is absolutely an important part of the "innings eater" equation we're talking about here. I know you have to leave that element out if you want to get anywhere bashing Marquis, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

Missing 1 start here or there is nowhere near the problem as consistently not making it into and past the 6th inning. More often than not, that starter replacing the injured for a start is unknown to other teams, and often does very well, hell we all know the Cubs cant hit unknown pitchers.

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

[Drew Doughty]

well except that his argument is that marquis contributes to a burned out or mediocre bullpen because he frequently leaves games early. this was a terrible problem with the Cubs last year, as their bullpen had the most innings pitched in the NL. So despite having a rather talented pen, the Cubs bullpen ERA was 4.04, which was probably not a true indication of the talent in the pen since guys like Rusch and Novoa frequently have to pitch (substitute Eyre and Gallager for this year). when your starter leaves early it exposes the weakest part of most pitching staffs, the mid-long relief.

[davearm]

well except that his argument is that marquis contributes to a burned out or mediocre bullpen because he frequently leaves games early. this was a terrible problem with the Cubs last year, as their bullpen had the most innings pitched in the NL. So despite having a rather talented pen, the Cubs bullpen ERA was 4.04, which was probably not a true indication of the talent in the pen since guys like Rusch and Novoa frequently have to pitch (substitute Eyre and Gallager for this year). when your starter leaves early it exposes the weakest part of most pitching staffs, the mid-long relief.

And what do you suppose happens to the bullpen when a guy like Rusch is forced to start a game because the scheduled starter can't go?

 

Now you've got starter that's even more likely to leave the game early, but one fewer BP arm available to deal with the added stress.

 

The fact is that the Cubs' pen was so overworked last year precisely because they didn't have a guy like Marquis to eat innings at the back of the rotation. Instead they were forced to hand out starts to guys like Walrond, O'Malley, Rusch, Jerome Williams, Mateo, and on and on. The results were as ugly as they were predictable.

Edited August 13, 2007 by davearm

[Drew Doughty]

well except that his argument is that marquis contributes to a burned out or mediocre bullpen because he frequently leaves games early. this was a terrible problem with the Cubs last year, as their bullpen had the most innings pitched in the NL. So despite having a rather talented pen, the Cubs bullpen ERA was 4.04, which was probably not a true indication of the talent in the pen since guys like Rusch and Novoa frequently have to pitch (substitute Eyre and Gallager for this year). when your starter leaves early it exposes the weakest part of most pitching staffs, the mid-long relief.

And what do you suppose happens to the bullpen when a guy like Rusch is forced to start a game because the scheduled starter can't go?

 

Now you've got starter that's even more likely to leave the game early, but one fewer BP arm available to deal with the added stress.

 

what in the world does that have to do with the argument at hand? i know rusch is/was a terrible pitcher. i don't know what you're getting at with that post.

[CUBZ99]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

I'm sure he wants to twist the argument to focus just on average innings per start, but that doesn't make it appropriate.

 

Look each team has ~1500 innings that have to be pitched over the course of a 162 game schedule. The only question at hand here is how big of a piece of that pie is Marquis biting off.

 

And the answer is that Marquis has helped the Cubs more than the guys that average a few tenths of an inning more per start, but have missed multiple starts. When a guy can't take the ball, the team has to scramble to find a replacement. That takes just as much of a toll on the staff, if not more.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to call health a skill, but showing up and taking the ball every fifth day is absolutely an important part of the "innings eater" equation we're talking about here. I know you have to leave that element out if you want to get anywhere bashing Marquis, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

Missing 1 start here or there is nowhere near the problem as consistently not making it into and past the 6th inning. More often than not, that starter replacing the injured for a start is unknown to other teams, and often does very well, hell we all know the Cubs cant hit unknown pitchers.

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

 

We are now reduced to arguing about Marquis IP/GS? If we used that to measure the quality of a pitcher, Matt Morris, Aaron Cook and Jon Garland would all be considered better pitchers than Carlos Zambrano.

 

IP/GS could be a factor of numerous things, such as a manager's predisposition to let a pitcher get his way out of trouble, sheer matchups, the pitcher's spot on the lineup coming up to bat, and the quality and/or manager's confidence in the bullpen.

 

If you look at the number of Quality Starts Marquis is 36th in the NL, which is not bad at all. Look, nobody is making an argument that Marquis is a tremendous pitcher or the anchor of the Cubs staff, but he has put in a quality year to this point.

[davearm]

well except that his argument is that marquis contributes to a burned out or mediocre bullpen because he frequently leaves games early. this was a terrible problem with the Cubs last year, as their bullpen had the most innings pitched in the NL. So despite having a rather talented pen, the Cubs bullpen ERA was 4.04, which was probably not a true indication of the talent in the pen since guys like Rusch and Novoa frequently have to pitch (substitute Eyre and Gallager for this year). when your starter leaves early it exposes the weakest part of most pitching staffs, the mid-long relief.

And what do you suppose happens to the bullpen when a guy like Rusch is forced to start a game because the scheduled starter can't go?

 

Now you've got starter that's even more likely to leave the game early, but one fewer BP arm available to deal with the added stress.

 

what in the world does that have to do with the argument at hand? i know rusch is/was a terrible pitcher. i don't know what you're getting at with that post.

I thought the point was rather obvious.

 

When a guy can't make a start, typically the guy that's forced to replace him is some blah swingman like Rusch. The result is added stress on the bullpen when the guy gets roughed up early, or simply doesn't have the stamina to go deep into the game.

 

We saw this happen again and again and again last year with the parade of replacement starters the Cubs were forced to roll out. You said it yourself -- the Cubs' pen was the most overworked in the NL. That's because they didn't have anyone (besides Zambrano) to eat innings and save the bullpen. Marquis does that.

[Keener98]

Hes averageing less than 6ip per start, hes not eating innings. Over half his starts hes left before the 6th inning was over, that is asking a lot out of your bullpen, and will tire them quickly.

LOL. 30th in the NL in IP; 55th in MLB in IP. Both figures would put him as a fringe #2, top #3 innings eater.

 

A few NL notables behind him: Smoltz, Zito, Sheets, Odalis Perez, Chris Young.

 

I'd suggest you retreat back to the trend mullarkey.

 

He's talking about average innings per start. Zito is the only guy who is averaging fewer innings per start, and that's because he's been terrible this year. There is something to be said for health, but that wasn't the gist of his post. Chris Young, IIRC, has issues with his hands/fingers numbing.

 

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/vh2k6/ipperstart-1.gif

I'm sure he wants to twist the argument to focus just on average innings per start, but that doesn't make it appropriate.

 

Look each team has ~1500 innings that have to be pitched over the course of a 162 game schedule. The only question at hand here is how big of a piece of that pie is Marquis biting off.

 

And the answer is that Marquis has helped the Cubs more than the guys that average a few tenths of an inning more per start, but have missed multiple starts. When a guy can't take the ball, the team has to scramble to find a replacement. That takes just as much of a toll on the staff, if not more.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to call health a skill, but showing up and taking the ball every fifth day is absolutely an important part of the "innings eater" equation we're talking about here. I know you have to leave that element out if you want to get anywhere bashing Marquis, but that doesn't make it correct.

 

Missing 1 start here or there is nowhere near the problem as consistently not making it into and past the 6th inning. More often than not, that starter replacing the injured for a start is unknown to other teams, and often does very well, hell we all know the Cubs cant hit unknown pitchers.

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

 

We are now reduced to arguing about Marquis IP/GS? If we used that to measure the quality of a pitcher, Matt Morris, Aaron Cook and Jon Garland would all be considered better pitchers than Carlos Zambrano.

 

IP/GS could be a factor of numerous things, such as a manager's predisposition to let a pitcher get his way out of trouble, sheer matchups, the pitcher's spot on the lineup coming up to bat, and the quality and/or manager's confidence in the bullpen.

 

If you look at the number of Quality Starts Marquis is 36th in the NL, which is not bad at all. Look, nobody is making an argument that Marquis is a tremendous pitcher or the anchor of the Cubs staff, but he has put in a quality year to this point.

 

No people brought up that Marquis was signed as an "innings eater" and they say hes been doing that. Anze and Myself are arguing that he isnt doing that, as he rarely makes it into and past the 6th inning. Marquis had a good first month in a half and outside of that all of his stats are horrible plain and simple.

 

Since the All Star Break he has a 5.71 ERA 1.53 Whip and teams are hitting almost .285 against him, thats not quality.

[Keener98]

well except that his argument is that marquis contributes to a burned out or mediocre bullpen because he frequently leaves games early. this was a terrible problem with the Cubs last year, as their bullpen had the most innings pitched in the NL. So despite having a rather talented pen, the Cubs bullpen ERA was 4.04, which was probably not a true indication of the talent in the pen since guys like Rusch and Novoa frequently have to pitch (substitute Eyre and Gallager for this year). when your starter leaves early it exposes the weakest part of most pitching staffs, the mid-long relief.

And what do you suppose happens to the bullpen when a guy like Rusch is forced to start a game because the scheduled starter can't go?

 

Now you've got starter that's even more likely to leave the game early, but one fewer BP arm available to deal with the added stress.

 

what in the world does that have to do with the argument at hand? i know rusch is/was a terrible pitcher. i don't know what you're getting at with that post.

I thought the point was rather obvious.

 

When a guy can't make a start, typically the guy that's forced to replace him is some blah swingman like Rusch. The result is added stress on the bullpen when the guy gets roughed up early, or simply doesn't have the stamina to go deep into the game.

 

We saw this happen again and again and again last year with the parade of replacement starters the Cubs were forced to roll out. You said it yourself -- the Cubs' pen was the most overworked in the NL. That's because they didn't have anyone (besides Zambrano) to eat innings and save the bullpen. Marquis does that.

 

Typically the guy replacing the injured starter is a minor leaguer, most teams dont usually have a swingman like the Cubs last year.

[davearm]

Missing 1 start here or there is nowhere near the problem as consistently not making it into and past the 6th inning.

Who are you referring to consistently not making it into the 6th inning?

 

Surely not Marquis. He's pitched into the 6th in all but 3 starts this year. But don't let those pesky facts get your way.

 

More often than not, that starter replacing the injured for a start is unknown to other teams, and often does very well, hell we all know the Cubs cant hit unknown pitchers.

This is just precious. Did you not see the absolutely horrific numbers that the Cubs' replacement starters had last year? You really want to live through that again?

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

Runs allowed has nothing to do with eating innings. Once again your attempt to distort the question is obvious. Although I'm again curious about who you're referring to here, since Marquis has an ERA much closer to 4 than 5.

[davearm]

We are now reduced to arguing about Marquis IP/GS? If we used that to measure the quality of a pitcher, Matt Morris, Aaron Cook and Jon Garland would all be considered better pitchers than Carlos Zambrano.

 

IP/GS could be a factor of numerous things, such as a manager's predisposition to let a pitcher get his way out of trouble, sheer matchups, the pitcher's spot on the lineup coming up to bat, and the quality and/or manager's confidence in the bullpen.

 

If you look at the number of Quality Starts Marquis is 36th in the NL, which is not bad at all. Look, nobody is making an argument that Marquis is a tremendous pitcher or the anchor of the Cubs staff, but he has put in a quality year to this point.

 

No people brought up that Marquis was signed as an "innings eater" and they say hes been doing that. Anze and Myself are arguing that he isnt doing that, as he rarely makes it into and past the 6th inning. Marquis had a good first month in a half and outside of that all of his stats are horrible plain and simple.

What you meant to say is, Marquis rarely doesn't make into the 6th.

[Keener98]

Missing 1 start here or there is nowhere near the problem as consistently not making it into and past the 6th inning.

Who are you referring to consistently not making it into the 6th inning?

 

Surely not Marquis. He's pitched into the 6th in all but 3 starts this year. But don't let those pesky facts get in the way of your

 

More often than not, that starter replacing the injured for a start is unknown to other teams, and often does very well, hell we all know the Cubs cant hit unknown pitchers.

This is just precious. Did you not see the absolutely horrific numbers that the Cubs' replacement starters had last year? You really want to live through that again?

 

Also consistently taking the ball and eating innings only matters if those innings hes eating he's also not allowing near 5 runs a game.

Runs allowed has nothing to do with eating innings. Once again your attempt to distort the question is obvious. Although I'm again curious about who you're referring to here, since Marquis has an ERA much closer to 4 than 5.

 

Once again try reading the post. I said into and PAST the 6th inning for one. Two, are you really not counting the 5 other times he hasnt even thrown a pitch in the 6th inning, and the 3 other times hes only got 1 out in the 6th inning?

 

And once again where is his ERA at since June?

 

Also it would be nice if you could try having a debate without smartass comments.

[Derwood]

i'm tired of typing this, but:

 

A 5.00 ERA for a guy pitching 6 innings per game DOES NOT MEAN he gave up 5 runs!!!!!! It means he averaged giving up 3 1/3 runs per 6 innings.

 

STOP SAYING THIS

[Keener98]

We are now reduced to arguing about Marquis IP/GS? If we used that to measure the quality of a pitcher, Matt Morris, Aaron Cook and Jon Garland would all be considered better pitchers than Carlos Zambrano.

 

IP/GS could be a factor of numerous things, such as a manager's predisposition to let a pitcher get his way out of trouble, sheer matchups, the pitcher's spot on the lineup coming up to bat, and the quality and/or manager's confidence in the bullpen.

 

If you look at the number of Quality Starts Marquis is 36th in the NL, which is not bad at all. Look, nobody is making an argument that Marquis is a tremendous pitcher or the anchor of the Cubs staff, but he has put in a quality year to this point.

 

No people brought up that Marquis was signed as an "innings eater" and they say hes been doing that. Anze and Myself are arguing that he isnt doing that, as he rarely makes it into and past the 6th inning. Marquis had a good first month in a half and outside of that all of his stats are horrible plain and simple.

What you meant to say is, Marquis rarely doesn't make into the 6th.

 

Whatever man Im done with you and your smartass remarks. Ive made my point in this thread, and you keep seeing what you want to see. Im done with you.

[Keener98]

i'm tired of typing this, but:

 

A 5.00 ERA for a guy pitching 6 innings per game DOES NOT MEAN he gave up 5 runs!!!!!! It means he averaged giving up 3 1/3 runs per 6 innings.

 

STOP SAYING THIS

 

Ok Ive been up over 24 hours right now, so Im not really sure who you are talking to.