Miller will be skipped

[Mephistopheles]

because hes got the potential to be dominant. miller doesn't. given his track record it's very likely the light will come on.

 

Is that opinion or is there something tangible that you can point to?

 

im pretty sure three above average to plus pitches are pretty tangible.

[papabear58]

because hes got the potential to be dominant. miller doesn't. given his track record it's very likely the light will come on.

 

Is that opinion or is there something tangible that you can point to?

 

im pretty sure three above average to plus pitches are pretty tangible.

 

But so far those "tangibles" have not produced results. I'd be the first person to eat serious crow on this and smile the entire time I'm doing so, but my entire point is that I don't believe the Guzman should just be thrown out there. We've tried that and it didn't work. Now it's time to bring him along slower. Get him more innings out of the pen, hell it's not like anyone else out of it can seem to do any better then he would. I just want a better approch to what we're doing in pitcher development.

[Mephistopheles]

and millers tangibles havent produced much either. theres no upside. hes trash. at least go with trash that could be useful if you invest in his development.

[papabear58]

and millers tangibles havent produced much either. theres no upside. hes trash. at least go with trash that could be useful if you invest in his development.

 

Here is my stance (for what it's worth):

 

1) Miller needs more the one start to be labled "stick a fork in him"

2) Guzman needs to be developed further

3) If Miller isn't the answer then "polish a turd" and package him with a B+ prospect and see if you can get a team with a small budget to move someone who they know that they can't resign who might be looking to catch lightning in a bottle.

 

I really don't think I'm too far out there. Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't.

[Derwood]

this thread is more fun than Illinois vs. Indiana basketball

 

:roll:

[Mephistopheles]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

[Derwood]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

okay, say Lou sticks Guzman out there instead of Miller, and in his first start, he goes 2 1/3, gives up 9 hits, 8 ER and walks 5. Then what?

[papabear58]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

Again, you are passing off opinion as fact. You BELIEVE that Guzman will get better and are not allowing for the fact that he might put up the same numbers that he has in the past. You are also not allowing for the fact that he might actually do :gasp: worse then Miller :gasp: It's speculation. As for not deserving another start, if you're that hard across the board (being intellectually honest) then there are a lot of people who would be sitting right now on this club. Hell Isturis and Lee shouldn't play next game because they didn't do their job in the field. One game is not enough for any judgement.

[Mephistopheles]

no i realize youre dusty baker. guzman was unlucky as hell last season era wise. this is pretty obvious. at worst guzman and miller are interchangeable with minimal differences. this isnt a radical suggestion, run the data yourself. miller didnt deserve the first start he got this season. he should never have made the team

 

 

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

okay, say Lou sticks Guzman out there instead of Miller, and in his first start, he goes 2 1/3, gives up 9 hits, 8 ER and walks 5. Then what?

you give him the ball and say youre in the rotation. deal with it. millers just as likely to do that as guzman.

[RichHillIsABeast]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

okay, say Lou sticks Guzman out there instead of Miller, and in his first start, he goes 2 1/3, gives up 9 hits, 8 ER and walks 5. Then what?

 

Then you figure out what is causing him to tip his pitches.

[Sammy Sofa]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

I doubt that nobody wants Miller. Based on his starts at the end of last year, there are takers out there. I hope Guzman will have a great future with this club, but right now I want to see if Miller can get anything done so the Cubs can capitalize on a trade involving him. I definitely don't think Miller is as worthless or "trash."

[RichHillIsABeast]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

Again, you are passing off opinion as fact. You BELIEVE that Guzman will get better and are not allowing for the fact that he might put up the same numbers that he has in the past. You are also not allowing for the fact that he might actually do :gasp: worse then Miller :gasp: It's speculation. As for not deserving another start, if you're that hard across the board (being intellectually honest) then there are a lot of people who would be sitting right now on this club. Hell Isturis and Lee shouldn't play next game because they didn't do their job in the field. One game is not enough for any judgement.

 

Gooz's stuff this season is significantly better (especially his curve) than last season. Why would he put up the same numbers as last year?

[RichHillIsABeast]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

I doubt that nobody wants Miller. Based on his starts at the end of last year, there are takers out there. I hope Guzman will have a great future with this club, but right now I want to see if Miller can get anything done so the Cubs can capitalize on a trade involving him. I definitely don't think Miller is as worthless or "trash."

 

The most we're going to get for Miller is a mediocre prospect/pen arm. He isn't going to gain 2-5 mph on his fastball any time soon. His offspeed stuff is fine. His ceiling isn't far enough up there to justify starting him to maybe increase what little trade value he has.

[papabear58]

no i realize youre dusty baker. guzman was unlucky as hell last season era wise. this is pretty obvious. at worst guzman and miller are interchangeable with minimal differences. this isnt a radical suggestion, run the data yourself. miller didnt deserve the first start he got this season. he should never have made the team

 

 

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

okay, say Lou sticks Guzman out there instead of Miller, and in his first start, he goes 2 1/3, gives up 9 hits, 8 ER and walks 5. Then what?

you give him the ball and say youre in the rotation. deal with it. millers just as likely to do that as guzman.

 

Wow, dude, talk about faith. You have so much belief in Angel Guzman that you are not even able to see that he might get shelled. Juan Cruz had great stuff and was never able to put it together, there is no gaurantee. I'm not saying Miller is the answer, but Guzman hasn't shown he's the next Nolan Ryan like some people are protraying him. He might be, but he might also suck. There is a chance both ways. It's a matter of belief as to which you believe.

 

Me, I tend to take a safer approach and that's to let him work it out where he can be protected, but hey, the tough love mentality has worked out so well for so many promising young Cub pitchers to date that of course no one should question it.

[Sammy Sofa]

I really don't feel comfortable dumping Miller at this point with Prior off in limbo. All of our other pitching backups aren't too great. I'm not saying Miller is going to be some kind of ace, but it's not like he hasn't any success since coming to the Cubs. If he keeps sucking, of course, get Guzman in there, but for now it's only been 1 start.

[papabear58]

miller doesnt deserve another start for the fork. the fork was stuck in him several seasons ago. guzman can develop in the rotation. right now the difference between him and miller is insignificant. nobody wants miller. only jim hendry is stupid enough

 

Again, you are passing off opinion as fact. You BELIEVE that Guzman will get better and are not allowing for the fact that he might put up the same numbers that he has in the past. You are also not allowing for the fact that he might actually do :gasp: worse then Miller :gasp: It's speculation. As for not deserving another start, if you're that hard across the board (being intellectually honest) then there are a lot of people who would be sitting right now on this club. Hell Isturis and Lee shouldn't play next game because they didn't do their job in the field. One game is not enough for any judgement.

 

Gooz's stuff this season is significantly better (especially his curve) than last season. Why would he put up the same numbers as last year?

 

Ok, so you think that "Gooz's stuff this season is significantly better". That doesn't mean it's going to translate into success. Games are only so much on talent. Gooz's "suff" was better in spring training as well, unless you want to say it magically got better when spring training ended, and he wasn't even able to impress the Cubs manager (who knows quite a bit about baseball I think) enough to make it into the final two competitors for the spot.

[Chocolate Milk]

My issue is that I don't really see much of an upside to Miller. I do see an upside with Guzman.

[Derwood]

you know who else had great stuff? Rick Ankiel

 

/gas on the fire

[Laura]

you know who else had great stuff? Rick Ankiel

 

/gas on the fire

 

So you're saying Guzman should play CF?

[Derwood]

you know who else had great stuff? Rick Ankiel

 

/gas on the fire

 

So you're saying Guzman should play CF?

 

:thumright:

[Mephistopheles]

you dont get it. guzmans ERA last year was a fluke. its common sense. it can be thrown out the door.

[Derwood]

you dont get it. guzmans ERA last year was a fluke. its common sense. it can be thrown out the door.

 

oh, NOW i see

[Mizzou]

The last time Guzman had success at AA or higher was four years ago, in 2003. I can understand the reasoning for not wanting Miller in the rotation, but I don't understand the logic behind assuming that Guzman will be better when he hasn't done anything in the past several years.

[Derwood]

The last time Guzman had success at AA or higher was four years ago, in 2003. I can understand the reasoning for not wanting Miller in the rotation, but I don't understand the logic behind assuming that Guzman will be better when he hasn't done anything in the past several years.

 

hmmmm, right around the same time Miller was last effective.

 

Looks like a choice between a turd sandwich and a crap baguette

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The last time Guzman had success at AA or higher was four years ago, in 2003. I can understand the reasoning for not wanting Miller in the rotation, but I don't understand the logic behind assuming that Guzman will be better when he hasn't done anything in the past several years.

 

That's not true. Guzman was very good last year at Iowa for 15 starts.