Brad Wilkerson?

[CuseCubFan69]

Does anyone think Kenny Lofton would be a good stopgap? He could platoon with Theriot.

 

Since when could Theriot play CF?

 

Since he reminded me of Ryan Freel last year. Hell, they had Soriano and now Lugo there and they haven't done it either. Or get Brady Clark, I don't care. The point is how come no one's talking about Lofton; he's an ideal one year guy.

 

Lofton would be a great option for the cubs. He would probably put up a similar OPS+ to Jones, trading some power for OBP. He would also most likely hit second pushing DeRosa to the bottom of the order, which is a good idea. He would also be slightly cheaper, and then hopefully we could trade Jones, something of value. However, it all depends on if he will sign a 1 yr deal and how much he likes Chicago.

 

I'd like to see Lofton again as well, but maybe Bruce can answer this better than me, how was he in the clubhouse? According to Schuerholz, he was known as being extremely selfish.

 

I hated him when he played for Arizona in basketball. I wonder if he was selfish or the only guy to stand up to Sosa?

 

Well, if he was selfish while in Atlanta, I doubt Sosa had anything to do with it. It does sound like an interesting clash though.

 

I meant when he was with the Cubs.

[10man]

Sign him to a $1M base salary laden with performance bonuses.

[nilodnayr]

I was on the Wilkerson bandwgn last season and for a couple of years before that. He was abysmal in 2006, however. I'd be willing to take a small risk on him, but I'm concerned that injuries may have taken a toll on his body.

 

Supposedly his shoulder will be healthy going into spring training. Hes played the last two years with it being useless, trying to play through the pain and having cortisone shots.

 

if Soriano had injuries that he played through in 04-05, would you excuse his drop in OPS?

 

it's something that hasn't been discussed much around here. now Soriano was by no means my first choice for the Cubs, but the fact is the biggest ammunition that his critics have is his 04-05 seasons when he switched to a different division, Showalter gave him hell, and he played through injuries.

 

Switching to different divisions? Seriously? Well he switched leagues last year and that didn't seem to hurt him. Plus he switched from the tough AL East to the less tough AL West. I've never heard anyone use the switching divisions excuse, thats hilarious. I don't know if Showalter gave him hell, I think Showalter gives everyone hell, but thats probably about on par with Torre and Piniella.

 

And for the "playing through injuries" I assume you are talking about when Soriano tore his hamstring mid-sept in 2004. Well he actually didn't play another game the rest of the season. So there goes your theory for 04. He had a clean bill of health going into 05. He did reaggrivate it in June and sat out a few games. If playing through injuries was the case, then from this point on you would have seen his numbers go down. He had an 873 OPS at this point. However, he actually game back an hit better initially, reaching a high of 931 a few weeks later, ending June at 870. He ended July at 856, ending August at 852. He really struggled the last two weeks in Sept. There were no reports about the hammy nagging him or anything.

 

Your points would hold water if they were actually true.

[questionmarkgrace]

Kenny just wants to win and from what I've heard he questioned sosa's at bats in game 6 and 7 of the nlcs. I am all about kenny still even though his arm is only slightly better than Juan Pierre's. Defesively he covers as much ground and is a smarter player in general. He make things happen on offense too and he's exciting to watch. I was a big fan of his before 03 and have been a bigger fan since. Its hard to believe that he still doesn't have a ring.

 

Back to the topic though, wilkerson would be a great low risk high reward signing ala dempster and W. Miller.

[jjgman21]

I was on the Wilkerson bandwgn last season and for a couple of years before that. He was abysmal in 2006, however. I'd be willing to take a small risk on him, but I'm concerned that injuries may have taken a toll on his body.

 

Supposedly his shoulder will be healthy going into spring training. Hes played the last two years with it being useless, trying to play through the pain and having cortisone shots.

 

if Soriano had injuries that he played through in 04-05, would you excuse his drop in OPS?

 

it's something that hasn't been discussed much around here. now Soriano was by no means my first choice for the Cubs, but the fact is the biggest ammunition that his critics have is his 04-05 seasons when he switched to a different division, Showalter gave him hell, and he played through injuries.

 

Switching to different divisions? Seriously? Well he switched leagues last year and that didn't seem to hurt him. Plus he switched from the tough AL East to the less tough AL West. I've never heard anyone use the switching divisions excuse, thats hilarious. I don't know if Showalter gave him hell, I think Showalter gives everyone hell, but thats probably about on par with Torre and Piniella.

 

And for the "playing through injuries" I assume you are talking about when Soriano tore his hamstring mid-sept in 2004. Well he actually didn't play another game the rest of the season. So there goes your theory for 04. He had a clean bill of health going into 05. He did reaggrivate it in June and sat out a few games. If playing through injuries was the case, then from this point on you would have seen his numbers go down. He had an 873 OPS at this point. However, he actually game back an hit better initially, reaching a high of 931 a few weeks later, ending June at 870. He ended July at 856, ending August at 852. He really struggled the last two weeks in Sept. There were no reports about the hammy nagging him or anything.

 

Your points would hold water if they were actually true.

 

when you go from playing on the Yankees and hitting against the pitching of the D-Rays, Toronto, Boston, and Baltimore to the larger parks in the AL West, and the significantly better pitching he faced and the larger ballparks he played in, yes, the differences in the two divisions is pretty significant.

 

for playing through injuries, I am particularly talking about the leg injury he suffered in late ST 2004 which ailed him for about two and a half months and was aggrevated in late April 2004. not coincidentally, May 2004 dragged his season stats down significantly. regarding 2005, see your point about 2004's late season injury and look what month dragged his season stats down in in 2005 while his hammy was still a little ginger.

 

Showalter also screwed with him from the second he arrived. this is about the best compilation of news and notes I've seen on Soriano.

 

http://www.thomasgeorge.com/baseball/profile.cfm?playerId=1765&allNews=1

 

he was an immature kid, and probably remains so, but that was exacerbated by Showalter being a jerk to him all along.

 

so. since my points hold water since they are actually true, I guess you are ready to back off of your criticism of Soriano and give his injuries and circumstances similar treatment as you do Wilkerson's, right?

[nilodnayr]

 

when you go from playing on the Yankees and hitting against the pitching of the D-Rays, Toronto, Boston, and Baltimore to the larger parks in the AL West, and the significantly better pitching he faced and the larger ballparks he played in, yes, the differences in the two divisions is pretty significant.

 

for playing through injuries, I am particularly talking about the leg injury he suffered in late ST 2004 which ailed him for about two and a half months and was aggrevated in late April 2004. not coincidentally, May 2004 dragged his season stats down significantly. regarding 2005, see your point about 2004's late season injury and look what month dragged his season stats down in in 2005 while his hammy was still a little ginger.

 

Showalter also screwed with him from the second he arrived. this is about the best compilation of news and notes I've seen on Soriano.

 

http://www.thomasgeorge.com/baseball/profile.cfm?playerId=1765&allNews=1

 

he was an immature kid, and probably remains so, but that was exacerbated by Showalter being a jerk to him all along.

 

so. since my points hold water since they are actually true, I guess you are ready to back off of your criticism of Soriano and give his injuries and circumstances similar treatment as you do Wilkerson's, right?

 

OPS+ adjusts for park factors. Yankee stadium plays a bit to the advantage of pitchers, Ameriquest significantly to the advantage of hitters. Half his games are played at home so arguing the park factors of the AL West hurt him is pretty ridiculous. It would be interesting to do a study about the difference in pitching between the AL East and the AL West, rather than just make blanket claims. I'm guessing the difference is minimal if any.

 

For Soriano's history I used KFFL. They mention that he sat out the one game, but that is it. According to the website you posted looks like he hit a rough spot around then, but he still consistently put up low to mid 800 OPS throughout 2004.

 

Its difficult to say how big of an "injury" he had as he only sat out one game and he healed. To compare it to Wilkerson who had to receive cortisone shots and have surgery is laughable at best.

 

Early in 05, he must have been OK...

 

 

Rangers | Soriano Throws Fit for Day Off

Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:22:59 -0700

 

The Associated Press reports Texas Rangers 2B Alfonso Soriano (knee) kicked over a trash can and a rolling laundry cart after learning from manager Buck Showalter that he wasn't going to play Tuesday, April 19. Soriano came out after seven innings Monday due to a bruised left knee.

 

 

Guys who are playing through "injuries" don't kick trash cans and laundry carts for getting scratched for a game.

[nilodnayr]

 

regarding 2005, see your point about 2004's late season injury and look what month dragged his season stats down in in 2005 while his hammy was still a little ginger.

 

Are you referring to March/April 2005?

[nilodnayr]

 

Showalter also screwed with him from the second he arrived. this is about the best compilation of news and notes I've seen on Soriano.

 

http://www.thomasgeorge.com/baseball/profile.cfm?playerId=1765&allNews=1

 

he was an immature kid, and probably remains so, but that was exacerbated by Showalter being a jerk to him all along.

 

A kid? He was 28-29 yrs old when he played in Texas. He also played for the Hiroshima Carp and was raised in their Dominican Republic Baseball Academy. Yeah, those Japanese aren't known to be strict or to mess with your mind. This argument is just getting ridiculous.

[jjgman21]

 

Showalter also screwed with him from the second he arrived. this is about the best compilation of news and notes I've seen on Soriano.

 

http://www.thomasgeorge.com/baseball/profile.cfm?playerId=1765&allNews=1

 

he was an immature kid, and probably remains so, but that was exacerbated by Showalter being a jerk to him all along.

 

A kid? He was 28-29 yrs old when he played in Texas. He also played for the Hiroshima Carp and was raised in their Dominican Republic Baseball Academy. Yeah, those Japanese aren't known to be strict or to mess with your mind. This argument is just getting ridiculous.

 

yes it is ridiculous and you are making it that way. if you look at the link I posted there is clear evidence he was nursing injuries in both May 2004 and April 2005, which also happen to be two of his worst months while with Texas. do an internet search for articles from that time and you will find more evidence of it. your failure to acknowledge that and instead pick on semantics like my use of the term "kid" to describe an immature athelete and the faulty logic of 'injured players don't kick carts' is absurd.

 

maybe going from being a superstar in the biggest baseball town in the world to being pee'd on by Showalter in Texas is a little different on a players psyche. maybe it isn't. but the primary point here is the injuries and your willingness to excuse the performance of a player you like because he was injured, but not excuse the performance a player you don't like because of injuries. that is inescapable no matter how you try to confound the issues.

[cheapseats]

Useless fact:

 

I sat next to a girl at a Cubs/Mets game (the one Leicester started) in 2005 who had a friend who got pregnant by Wilkerson.

 

Maybe Wilkerson would like to come to Chicago to be closer to his family? :wink:

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

when you go from playing on the Yankees and hitting against the pitching of the D-Rays, Toronto, Boston, and Baltimore to the larger parks in the AL West, and the significantly better pitching he faced and the larger ballparks he played in, yes, the differences in the two divisions is pretty significant.

 

Are they really better than the pitching the Angels and Mariners have had the past two years? What about the fact that he moved from a park that doesn't like RH hitters to a park that loves any hitter?

 

Showalter also screwed with him from the second he arrived. this is about the best compilation of news and notes I've seen on Soriano.

 

Yea, there are alot of managers like that. Thats more of a knock against Soriano, considering the amount of players with personal problems with someone somewhere that play well. He's now going to play under Lou Piniella? Think Lou is gonna baby him and treat him like the superstar he thinks he is?

 

he was an immature kid, and probably remains so, but that was exacerbated by Showalter being a jerk to him all along.

 

He was 28/29, thats pretty old for a professional athlete. And as a professional athlete I would expect him to not shed tears over what a meany his big, bad manager is.

 

so. since my points hold water since they are actually true, I guess you are ready to back off of your criticism of Soriano and give his injuries and circumstances similar treatment as you do Wilkerson's, right?

 

Hows about we go with actual production?

 

The Cubs problem is OBP, Wilkerson has always had a good one. Soriano was a power hitter in a power hitters park, but still hit for meh average and had well below average OBP for a player with his percieved value.

 

Thats probably why Wilkerson is getting a different treatment. He was playing with a hurt shoulder, and unlike Soriano has been an underrated not overrated hitter his whole career.

[WrigleyField 22]

There were reports earlier in the offseason the Cubs wanted a strong 4th OF. Wilkerson could definately fit that bill, with the ability to start if he does well enough (ie- 2004 #'s) He can play CF too right?

[nilodnayr]

 

yes it is ridiculous and you are making it that way. if you look at the link I posted there is clear evidence he was nursing injuries in both May 2004 and April 2005, which also happen to be two of his worst months while with Texas. do an internet search for articles from that time and you will find more evidence of it. your failure to acknowledge that and instead pick on semantics like my use of the term "kid" to describe an immature athelete and the faulty logic of 'injured players don't kick carts' is absurd.

 

maybe going from being a superstar in the biggest baseball town in the world to being pee'd on by Showalter in Texas is a little different on a players psyche. maybe it isn't. but the primary point here is the injuries and your willingness to excuse the performance of a player you like because he was injured, but not excuse the performance a player you don't like because of injuries. that is inescapable no matter how you try to confound the issues.

 

Well once again you are incorrect, his worst month in TX was Sept/Oct 2005. His April 2005 wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible with a 774 OPS, 8 doubles and 5 homers. By as soon as May 8th his OPS was up to 935. And although Spring Training numbers aren't the most valuable, he did have 889 OPS in 20 games.

 

Only people close to the situation probably know how much the injuries affected him, but the guy sat out one game for his April 04 "injury". Want to know how did after he sat out that one game? He went 2/5 in each of the next two games with 2 doubles. He continued to a 7 game hit streak which included 2 more doubles and 2 homers. After two ofer games, he then went 1/4 and then six for freakin six with two doubles. He had another double 2 games later and yet another as well as a HR the day after. In the 14 games after he sat out he had 19 hits, 7 of them were doubles, 3 of them were homers. His OPS INCREASED by 45 points.

 

Yeah, real clear evidence you have there.

 

If you are going to make claims that Soriano's numbers suffered while he was playing through injuries it might be helpful for you to actually look at his numbers.

[nilodnayr]

Useless fact:

 

I sat next to a girl at a Cubs/Mets game (the one Leicester started) in 2005 who had a friend who got pregnant by Wilkerson.

 

Maybe Wilkerson would like to come to Chicago to be closer to his family? :wink:

 

Oh no! Now he definitely wont want to come here. Chicago, the home of his baby mama and Jerry Springer...thats a recipe for disaster!

[nilodnayr]

There were reports earlier in the offseason the Cubs wanted a strong 4th OF. Wilkerson could definately fit that bill, with the ability to start if he does well enough (ie- 2004 #'s) He can play CF too right?

 

Yes, he was the Nats main CF in 2005.

[jjgman21]

 

yes it is ridiculous and you are making it that way. if you look at the link I posted there is clear evidence he was nursing injuries in both May 2004 and April 2005, which also happen to be two of his worst months while with Texas. do an internet search for articles from that time and you will find more evidence of it. your failure to acknowledge that and instead pick on semantics like my use of the term "kid" to describe an immature athelete and the faulty logic of 'injured players don't kick carts' is absurd.

 

maybe going from being a superstar in the biggest baseball town in the world to being pee'd on by Showalter in Texas is a little different on a players psyche. maybe it isn't. but the primary point here is the injuries and your willingness to excuse the performance of a player you like because he was injured, but not excuse the performance a player you don't like because of injuries. that is inescapable no matter how you try to confound the issues.

 

Well once again you are incorrect, his worst month in TX was Sept/Oct 2005. His April 2005 wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible with a 774 OPS, 8 doubles and 5 homers. By as soon as May 8th his OPS was up to 935. And although Spring Training numbers aren't the most valuable, he did have 889 OPS in 20 games.

 

Only people close to the situation probably know how much the injuries affected him, but the guy sat out one game for his April 04 "injury". Want to know how did after he sat out that one game? He went 2/5 in each of the next two games with 2 doubles. He continued to a 7 game hit streak which included 2 more doubles and 2 homers. After two ofer games, he then went 1/4 and then six for freakin six with two doubles. He had another double 2 games later and yet another as well as a HR the day after. In the 14 games after he sat out he had 19 hits, 7 of them were doubles, 3 of them were homers. His OPS INCREASED by 45 points.

 

Yeah, real clear evidence you have there.

 

If you are going to make claims that Soriano's numbers suffered while he was playing through injuries it might be helpful for you to actually look at his numbers.

 

wilkerson sat out only a handful of games in 2005. to what do you attribute his 24 point plummet in OPS+ from the year before? by your logic, it wasn't injury because he kept playing.

[jjgman21]

 

Hows about we go with actual production?

 

The Cubs problem is OBP, Wilkerson has always had a good one. Soriano was a power hitter in a power hitters park, but still hit for meh average and had well below average OBP for a player with his percieved value.

 

Thats probably why Wilkerson is getting a different treatment. He was playing with a hurt shoulder, and unlike Soriano has been an underrated not overrated hitter his whole career.

 

he gets different treatment because he fits the mold of the philosophy espoused by the majority of the board and you know it. that is the only reason, period.

 

you want to talk about production, let's talk about the steadily decreasing ability Wilkerson has shown to do the one thing he has done consistently well over the course of his career, take a walk. sure the shoulder is going to take away a chance at a walk here and there, but 132-119-103-84. that's Wilkersons IsoD over the past four years.

 

it's just a simple fact. Soriano had leg injuries at the beginning of 2004 and 2005. I think this thread makes clear that doesn't matter. facts will be ignored, other facts made up, other facts twisted, all to suit the argument. it simply doesn't matter because Soriano hasn't drawn enough walks to satisfy some, so his injuries cannot be an excuse as to why he had two down years of OPS.

 

don't get me wrong. I like Wilkerson and would love to see him rejuvinated and roaming center for the Cubs flanked by another OBP monster and a slugging monster with speed. I just want honest discussion and debate, and at times that is severely lacking.

[nilodnayr]

 

yes it is ridiculous and you are making it that way. if you look at the link I posted there is clear evidence he was nursing injuries in both May 2004 and April 2005, which also happen to be two of his worst months while with Texas. do an internet search for articles from that time and you will find more evidence of it. your failure to acknowledge that and instead pick on semantics like my use of the term "kid" to describe an immature athelete and the faulty logic of 'injured players don't kick carts' is absurd.

 

maybe going from being a superstar in the biggest baseball town in the world to being pee'd on by Showalter in Texas is a little different on a players psyche. maybe it isn't. but the primary point here is the injuries and your willingness to excuse the performance of a player you like because he was injured, but not excuse the performance a player you don't like because of injuries. that is inescapable no matter how you try to confound the issues.

 

Well once again you are incorrect, his worst month in TX was Sept/Oct 2005. His April 2005 wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible with a 774 OPS, 8 doubles and 5 homers. By as soon as May 8th his OPS was up to 935. And although Spring Training numbers aren't the most valuable, he did have 889 OPS in 20 games.

 

Only people close to the situation probably know how much the injuries affected him, but the guy sat out one game for his April 04 "injury". Want to know how did after he sat out that one game? He went 2/5 in each of the next two games with 2 doubles. He continued to a 7 game hit streak which included 2 more doubles and 2 homers. After two ofer games, he then went 1/4 and then six for freakin six with two doubles. He had another double 2 games later and yet another as well as a HR the day after. In the 14 games after he sat out he had 19 hits, 7 of them were doubles, 3 of them were homers. His OPS INCREASED by 45 points.

 

Yeah, real clear evidence you have there.

 

If you are going to make claims that Soriano's numbers suffered while he was playing through injuries it might be helpful for you to actually look at his numbers.

 

wilkerson sat out only a handful of games in 2005. to what do you attribute his 24 point plummet in OPS+ from the year before? by your logic, it wasn't injury because he kept playing.

 

Way to not address the issue that your point that Sorianos numbers suffered because of his injuries is completely invalid.

 

Soriano fouled a ball off his knee (Wilkerson had bumps and bruises as well, just like most players) and tore his hammy and sat out 6 months. Is that really the same as receiving cortisone shots to try to keep playing even though you need to have shoulder surgery and then end up having shoulder surgery?

[nilodnayr]

facts will be ignored, other facts made up, other facts twisted, all to suit the argument...I just want honest discussion and debate, and at times that is severely lacking.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

And the majority of my argument was rebutting your claim that soriano was affected by injuries, not as much about Wilkerson.

[Jehrico]

he gets different treatment because he fits the mold of the philosophy espoused by the majority of the board and you know it. that is the only reason, period.

 

 

 

I just want honest discussion and debate, and at times that is severely lacking.

 

Pardon me for interjecting, but it doesn't sound like you're practicing what you're preaching. That may be the reason for a handful of people, but you're broadly overgeneralizing why some people like Wilkerson and why some people are not pleased with the Soriano signing. There's plenty of honest discussion and debate around here. However, with the number of people here, you're going to find a few cases where some facts are twisted and misconstrued from time to time. That's life. Find a board anywhere on the internet that is open to anyone who wants to join where that is not the case. If you can't find several people around here to have an honest discussion and debate around here, you aren't trying very hard at all. This is one of the best sports boards I've found on the net, bar none.