John Kruk advocating cheating or not?

[RichHillIsABeast]

He just went to blowing in his hand, and that provided the grip he needed, which he then proceeded to use to completely punk the Cards for another what? 5 innings?

 

I'll bet he didn't think anything of it. Pine tar is used, probably by every pitcher in the league when it gets cold.

 

This whole thing is becoming ridiculous. Hitters coming up, slathering up their bats with stickum, wearing better armor than our soliders in Iraq, roiding up like mad until they look like they're going to pop. Then Rogers uses a little dab of pine tar so the ball doesn't fly out of his hand in the cold and suddenly he's a demon.

 

Wow. Am I seriously the only one who can see the double (triple? quadruple?) standard here?

 

Who's demonizing Rogers? He beat the Cards w/o that crap on his hand. The only people whining about that are sore losers.

 

Pine tar on bats is necessary to control the bat, if for nothing else than safety reasons. A foreign substance on a ball has no other purpose than to improve someone's stuff. There is no safety factor there. None.

 

There is no double standard.

 

I'm sure if pitchers wanted to wear body armor on the mound they could. Too bad it restricts the pitching motion so much it won't happen. That's the physical realities of the world we live in my friend.

 

Careers are ended by fastballs to the elbow. There are rules to prevent players from just sticking there armor out there or not even attempting to move out of the way of a pitch.

[Laura]

Here are the MLB official rules governing the pitcher. There are two different rules that get referenced when talking about Kenny Rogers.

 

Most of the discussion on ESPN and elsewhere has focused on Rule 8.02(a) having to do with modifying the ball. The rules clearly state that the umpire has tremendous discretion in determining both when the rules have been violated and what the penalty will be.

 

Rule 8.02(b) could also be applicable here and is the rule under which pitchers found with foreign substances can be ejected and suspended without throwing a pitch. The rules don't explicitly state that umpires have the same latitude in terms of discretion.

 

8.02(b)

(b) [The pitcher shall not] [h]ave on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games.

 

It was under Rule 8.02(b) that Zach Day was ejected from an Expos-Rockies game in 2003 after asking a trainer to help him remove glue he had applied over a blister.

 

Under rule 8.02 (b), a pitcher is automatically ejected if he is found with any foreign substance on his fingers.

 

"We don't really believe the kid thought he was cheating, but that has nothing to do with it,'' home plate umpire Bill Miller said. "He had a foreign substance on his person and that means he is in violation of this rule.''

 

Trainer Ron McClain came out to help [Day] scrape it off, leading [home plate umpire] Miller to walk out to the mound. Miller and second base umpire Joe West told manager Frank Robinson that they would have report Day to the league, then decided to eject him after meeting with the other two umpires. ... Robinson tried to argue that the glue should fall under the rule that prohibits defacing the ball, which would result in a warning instead of an ejection, but the umpires weren't buying it.

 

"We didn't have a choice,'' Miller said. "They forced our hand. As soon as we heard that it was Super Glue and not just a blister, then we had to throw him out.''

 

It was under Rule 8.02(b) that Brendan Donnelly was ejected and suspended when pine tar was found on his glove earlier this season. He had not thrown a pitch before being ejected. Julian Tavarez was also ejected in '04 under this rule for his pinetar hat.

[NewUserName]

Here are the MLB official rules governing the pitcher. There are two different rules that get referenced when talking about Kenny Rogers.

 

Most of the discussion on ESPN and elsewhere has focused on Rule 8.02(a) having to do with modifying the ball. The rules clearly state that the umpire has tremendous discretion in determining both when the rules have been violated and what the penalty will be.

 

Rule 8.02(b) could also be applicable here and is the rule under which pitchers found with foreign substances can be ejected and suspended without throwing a pitch. The rules don't explicitly state that umpires have the same latitude in terms of discretion.

 

8.02(b)

(b) [The pitcher shall not] [h]ave on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games.

 

It was under Rule 8.02(b) that Zach Day was ejected from an Expos-Rockies game in 2003 after asking a trainer to help him remove glue he had applied over a blister.

 

Under rule 8.02 (b), a pitcher is automatically ejected if he is found with any foreign substance on his fingers.

 

"We don't really believe the kid thought he was cheating, but that has nothing to do with it,'' home plate umpire Bill Miller said. "He had a foreign substance on his person and that means he is in violation of this rule.''

 

Trainer Ron McClain came out to help [Day] scrape it off, leading [home plate umpire] Miller to walk out to the mound. Miller and second base umpire Joe West told manager Frank Robinson that they would have report Day to the league, then decided to eject him after meeting with the other two umpires. ... Robinson tried to argue that the glue should fall under the rule that prohibits defacing the ball, which would result in a warning instead of an ejection, but the umpires weren't buying it.

 

"We didn't have a choice,'' Miller said. "They forced our hand. As soon as we heard that it was Super Glue and not just a blister, then we had to throw him out.''

 

It was under Rule 8.02(b) that Brendan Donnelly was ejected and suspended when pine tar was found on his glove earlier this season. He had not thrown a pitch before being ejected. Julian Tavarez was also ejected in '04 under this rule for his pinetar hat.

 

I was wrong.

 

I will still say though that LaRussa really didnt want his pitcher to be checked either and that is why he didnt make a bigger stink out of Rogers.

[Soul]

He just went to blowing in his hand, and that provided the grip he needed, which he then proceeded to use to completely punk the Cards for another what? 5 innings?

 

I'll bet he didn't think anything of it. Pine tar is used, probably by every pitcher in the league when it gets cold.

 

This whole thing is becoming ridiculous. Hitters coming up, slathering up their bats with stickum, wearing better armor than our soliders in Iraq, roiding up like mad until they look like they're going to pop. Then Rogers uses a little dab of pine tar so the ball doesn't fly out of his hand in the cold and suddenly he's a demon.

 

Wow. Am I seriously the only one who can see the double (triple? quadruple?) standard here?

 

Who's demonizing Rogers? He beat the Cards w/o that crap on his hand. The only people whining about that are sore losers.

 

Pine tar on bats is necessary to control the bat, if for nothing else than safety reasons. A foreign substance on a ball has no other purpose than to improve someone's stuff. There is no safety factor there. None.

 

There is no double standard.

 

I'm sure if pitchers wanted to wear body armor on the mound they could. Too bad it restricts the pitching motion so much it won't happen. That's the physical realities of the world we live in my friend.

 

Careers are ended by fastballs to the elbow. There are rules to prevent players from just sticking there armor out there or not even attempting to move out of the way of a pitch.

 

You can't make that safety argument. Well, I mean you *can*, but it doesn't really fly.

 

Pine tar is optional equipment. Not required. "Oh, I'm sorry you got your head bashed in and wound up a quadrapalegic, but Mr. Edmonds doesn't like to use pine tar." If it was for safety reasons, it would be required.

 

As for pitching equipment, last time I checked screens don't restrict the pitcher's movement. So let's have pitchers use screens so their freaking FACES don't get bashed in, because after all a hitter's elbow must be protected at all time. That's just silly all the way around.

 

Here's a better idea: no foreign substances at all, or else everyone should quit turning Rogers into a "cheater" for having a little pine tar on his hand in 38-degree weather. I'm good with either one, but I'm not good with the hypocrisy and witch hunts.

[forbez18]

Okay so I was a catcher on my College team and every year I was taught a new trick on how to help the pitchers get a (better grip) on the ball. From catchers I have talked to and my friends in the minors, it is usually the catchers who are helping the pitchers get something on the ball. Think about it, we are hitters and are allowed to have pine tar on our hand, so if some gets on the ball from the catcher, what can you do. We rub the balls down right in front of the umpires and scrap the same spot on our shin gaurds before we throw the ball back to the pitcher. Or many many other tricks that any catcher going through college balls or the minors has been taught along the way.

 

And yes it helps the pitchers and is a complete unfair advantage to batters. If you can get the pine tar on the seams of the ball, a pitcher can throw an unhittable curve ball, and even more devestating change up. It is not the fast ball that it gives the advantage to, it is the offspead pitches.

 

Do I think that its something that should get you in trouble? NO, its plain and simple part of the game. Pitchers grown their finger nails out to dig into the ball, should that be illegal? Football players wear gloves that seem to have glue on them so that they can catch the ball better, hockey goalies add padding to thier equipment just to be a little bit bigger, basketball players take 100 steps to get to the basket. In every game there are things that go on, that people might not think is appropriate, but its part of the game. Live with it or move on.

[NorthsideAvenger]

 

I don't think it's part of the game, however, I know it happens. Looking for an analogy, I'll go to football. On any given down, if you look, you'll probably see a hold. Does it get called? I think, most times, it doesn't. The gross ones probably do however. At least the one that have an effect on the play do.

 

Maybe NOT officially, but cheating is a part of the game. Or why else do you see the catchers having to go to the mound, when the runner reaches second, and change their signals with the pitchers?