The 2006-2007 Chicago Bulls Thread

[Magnetic Curses]

duhon and hinrich were 4-year college starters and gordon was the top reserve in the NBA.

Thabo played pro ball in Europe from 17 on, and he, Duhon and Hinrich were all 22 at the start of their rookie seasons in the NBA.

 

the european game is still different from the american game in coaching style and type of player. he may have seen plenty of guys who weren't good enough to play in the NBA, but he wasn't playing, nigh in, night out with players that he would see in the pro ranks. i'm wondering how many future NBAers that duhon, hinrich, and gordon played against while in the ACC, Big 12, and Big East respectively.

 

Minutes played do not factor into PER. It's a per minute stat.

 

i wasn't saying that they did, i was saying that minutes played effects experience and progression, which, at some point will increase his production and help him give an accurate picture of the player he'll be.

 

european players generally have a little lower PER in their first year than college players, anyway. even the ones who become top players.

[Magnetic Curses]

imo, thabo will be one of the best all-around players in the NBA at one point in his career. that's pure speculation, but i really believe that it will happen.

It's wild speculation after you factor in his performance during his rookie season.

 

yes, yes, we all know i'm stupid or crazy for making the assertion, i don't think everyone saw your previous post.

[UMFan83]

Presale was today at 10am. I picked up 4 cheap seats to game B, 2 to game C, and 2 $45 tickets to game A

[1908]

the european game is still different from the american game in coaching style and type of player. he may have seen plenty of guys who weren't good enough to play in the NBA, but he wasn't playing, nigh in, night out with players that he would see in the pro ranks. i'm wondering how many future NBAers that duhon, hinrich, and gordon played against while in the ACC, Big 12, and Big East respectively.

The level of play in the Euroleague is better than Division 1 college basketball, and it has been for a while now.

 

i wasn't saying that they did, i was saying that minutes played effects experience and progression, which, at some point will increase his production and help him give an accurate picture of the player he'll be.

Is that a pet theory of yours, or do you have some examples that back that up in terms of PER?

 

european players generally have a little lower PER in their first year than college players, anyway. even the ones who become top players.

Same question as above.

[1908]

imo, thabo will be one of the best all-around players in the NBA at one point in his career. that's pure speculation, but i really believe that it will happen.

It's wild speculation after you factor in his performance during his rookie season.

yes, yes, we all know i'm stupid or crazy for making the assertion, i don't think everyone saw your previous post.

Hilarious. Can you find me one rookie in NBA history with a PER under 9 that developed into one of the best all-around players in the NBA? PER stats go back for years on basketball-reference.com. Or, if you'd like, you can name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak, and we can look those guys up.

[1908]

Presale was today at 10am.

Sonofa.

[Magnetic Curses]

the european game is still different from the american game in coaching style and type of player. he may have seen plenty of guys who weren't good enough to play in the NBA, but he wasn't playing, nigh in, night out with players that he would see in the pro ranks. i'm wondering how many future NBAers that duhon, hinrich, and gordon played against while in the ACC, Big 12, and Big East respectively.

The level of play in the Euroleague is better than Division 1 college basketball, and it has been for a while now.

 

you're now making the same unproveable, relative statements you accuse

me of making. is that a pet theory of yours? :P

 

ei wasn't saying that they did, i was saying that minutes played effects experience and progression, which, at some point will increase his production and help him give an accurate picture of the player he'll be.

Is that a pet theory of yours, or do you have some examples that back that up in terms of PER?

 

what do you mean, my theory that players' skill and experience increases with playing time? i'm sorry, that's another crazy statement on my part.

 

european players generally have a little lower PER in their first year than college players, anyway. even the ones who become top players.

 

Same question as above.

 

players like dirk, peja, ginobilli, tony parker, and mehmet okur all have had PER's that have drastically imrpoved since their rookie seasons.

Edited April 4, 2007 by Stannis

[Magnetic Curses]

imo, thabo will be one of the best all-around players in the NBA at one point in his career. that's pure speculation, but i really believe that it will happen.

It's wild speculation after you factor in his performance during his rookie season.

yes, yes, we all know i'm stupid or crazy for making the assertion, i don't think everyone saw your previous post.

Hilarious. Can you find me one rookie in NBA history with a PER under 9 that developed into one of the best all-around players in the NBA? PER stats go back for years on basketball-reference.com. Or, if you'd like, you can name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak, and we can look those guys up.

 

come on, a second line of posts is unnecessary. settle down, i'm not insulting you.

[YearofDaCubs]

YES!

 

PS: Skiles, if you take minutes away from Tyrus rather than the PJ/Malik/Griffin segment of the team, I will hunt you down and smack you hard across the face.

Skiles:

"They would be a good combination playing together," he said. "I don't think it's going to affect Tyrus' minutes. Ultimately, maybe we'll think this was a blessing. Maybe 'Chapu' will be fresh and give us punch off the bench and make our second unit get better with Tyrus."

 

We'll see if he goes on his word, but I still see Tyrus losing minutes over PJ.

PJ is garbage.

[1908]

imo, thabo will be one of the best all-around players in the NBA at one point in his career. that's pure speculation, but i really believe that it will happen.

It's wild speculation after you factor in his performance during his rookie season.

yes, yes, we all know i'm stupid or crazy for making the assertion, i don't think everyone saw your previous post.

Hilarious. Can you find me one rookie in NBA history with a PER under 9 that developed into one of the best all-around players in the NBA? PER stats go back for years on basketball-reference.com. Or, if you'd like, you can name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak, and we can look those guys up.

 

come on, a second line of posts is unnecessary. settle down, i'm not insulting you.

I'm serious. Name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak as one of the best all-around players in the NBA.

[1908]

the european game is still different from the american game in coaching style and type of player. he may have seen plenty of guys who weren't good enough to play in the NBA, but he wasn't playing, nigh in, night out with players that he would see in the pro ranks. i'm wondering how many future NBAers that duhon, hinrich, and gordon played against while in the ACC, Big 12, and Big East respectively.

The level of play in the Euroleague is better than Division 1 college basketball, and it has been for a while now.

you're now making the same unproveable, relative statements you accuse

me of making. is that a pet theory of yours? :P

Not of mine. It's a widely held belief of the APBRmetrics community based on comparison studies.

 

ei wasn't saying that they did, i was saying that minutes played effects experience and progression, which, at some point will increase his production and help him give an accurate picture of the player he'll be.

Is that a pet theory of yours, or do you have some examples that back that up in terms of PER?

what do you mean, my theory that players' skill and experience increases with playing time? i'm sorry, that's another crazy statement on my part.

No, that players' PERs jump significantly with increased playing time.

 

european players generally have a little lower PER in their first year than college players, anyway. even the ones who become top players.

Same question as above.

players like dirk, peja, ginobilli, tony parker, and mehmet okur all have had PER's that have drastically imrpoved since their rookie seasons.

That phenominon isn't close to being limited to Europeon players, and it's Thabo's starting point that has me so down on his future. For instance, Okur's PER jumped from 14.7 to 18.3. Parker's 11.7 to 16.5. Manu's 14.7 to 18.5. If Thabo's PER jumps almost 5 full points like Parker's did, he still will be well below the NBA average of 15.

Edited April 4, 2007 by 1908

[Magnetic Curses]

imo, thabo will be one of the best all-around players in the NBA at one point in his career. that's pure speculation, but i really believe that it will happen.

It's wild speculation after you factor in his performance during his rookie season.

yes, yes, we all know i'm stupid or crazy for making the assertion, i don't think everyone saw your previous post.

Hilarious. Can you find me one rookie in NBA history with a PER under 9 that developed into one of the best all-around players in the NBA? PER stats go back for years on basketball-reference.com. Or, if you'd like, you can name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak, and we can look those guys up.

 

come on, a second line of posts is unnecessary. settle down, i'm not insulting you.

I'm serious. Name some players you think Thabo will resemble at his peak as one of the best all-around players in the NBA.

 

doug christie springs to mind. to a lesser extent, scottie pippen.

[Magnetic Curses]

the european game is still different from the american game in coaching style and type of player. he may have seen plenty of guys who weren't good enough to play in the NBA, but he wasn't playing, nigh in, night out with players that he would see in the pro ranks. i'm wondering how many future NBAers that duhon, hinrich, and gordon played against while in the ACC, Big 12, and Big East respectively.

The level of play in the Euroleague is better than Division 1 college basketball, and it has been for a while now.

you're now making the same unproveable, relative statements you accuse

me of making. is that a pet theory of yours? :P

Not of mine. It's a widely held belief of the APBRmetrics community based on comparison studies.

 

ei wasn't saying that they did, i was saying that minutes played effects experience and progression, which, at some point will increase his production and help him give an accurate picture of the player he'll be.

Is that a pet theory of yours, or do you have some examples that back that up in terms of PER?

what do you mean, my theory that players' skill and experience increases with playing time? i'm sorry, that's another crazy statement on my part.

No, that players' PERs jump significantly with increased playing time.

 

european players generally have a little lower PER in their first year than college players, anyway. even the ones who become top players.

Same question as above.

players like dirk, peja, ginobilli, tony parker, and mehmet okur all have had PER's that have drastically imrpoved since their rookie seasons.

That phenominon isn't close to being limited to Europeon players, and it's Thabo's starting point that has me so down on his future. For instance, Okur's PER jumped from 14.7 to 18.3. Parker's 11.7 to 16.5. Manu's 14.7 to 18.5. If Thabo's PER jumps almost 5 full points like Parker's did, he still will be well below the NBA average of 15.

 

so, you don't think that getting more reps will increase his skill, production, and ultimately, his PER?

[1908]

doug christie springs to mind. to a lesser extent, scottie pippen.

12.4 PER for Christie as a 22-year-old rookie, and it took him 5 years in the league to post an above-average (over 15) PER.

 

12.9 PER for Scottie his rookie season (also 22) and he was in the low 20's by season 4.

 

If Thabo's PER this year were in the 12's, I'd be a lot more optimistic. Maybe he could turn into a Christie down the road. No way Doug was ever one of the best all-around players in the NBA, though.

[1908]

so, you don't think that getting more reps will increase his skill, production, and ultimately, his PER?

No, his PER will increase, but I don't see it increasing the 11-15 points needed for him to become one of the best all-around players in the NBA someday. He has a lot of work to do to turn into an average starting NBA player.

[Magnetic Curses]

for example, thabo scores 19 points in 24 minutes on feb. 28. in the ensuing 14 games, he gets a grand tital of 62 minutes, equating to 4.4 mpg.

 

this is supposed to help his development?

[Magnetic Curses]

doug christie springs to mind. to a lesser extent, scottie pippen.

12.4 PER for Christie as a 22-year-old rookie, and it took him 5 years in the league to post an above-average (over 15) PER.

 

12.9 PER for Scottie his rookie season (also 22) and he was in the low 20's by season 4.

 

If Thabo's PER this year were in the 12's, I'd be a lot more optimistic. Maybe he could turn into a Christie down the road. No way Doug was ever one of the best all-around players in the NBA, though.

 

i think at his peak, christie could do whatever you wanted him to do. maybe "best all-around players" might be an overstatement, but "most versatile" wouldn't be.

[1908]

for example, thabo scores 19 points in 24 minutes on feb. 28. in the ensuing 14 games, he gets a grand tital of 62 minutes, equating to 4.4 mpg.

 

this is supposed to help his development?

He's less productive than Griffin this year, scary as that sounds. He needs time to develop but he's played so poorly I can't fault Skiles for not giving him significant minutes on a playoff team.

 

As I said, I think role player is Thabo's most likely future.

[1908]

doug christie springs to mind. to a lesser extent, scottie pippen.

12.4 PER for Christie as a 22-year-old rookie, and it took him 5 years in the league to post an above-average (over 15) PER.

 

12.9 PER for Scottie his rookie season (also 22) and he was in the low 20's by season 4.

 

If Thabo's PER this year were in the 12's, I'd be a lot more optimistic. Maybe he could turn into a Christie down the road. No way Doug was ever one of the best all-around players in the NBA, though.

 

i think at his peak, christie could do whatever you wanted him to do. maybe "best all-around players" might be an overstatement, but "most versatile" wouldn't be.

If most versatile means slightly above average 2, I'm with you.

[Magnetic Curses]

for example, thabo scores 19 points in 24 minutes on feb. 28. in the ensuing 14 games, he gets a grand tital of 62 minutes, equating to 4.4 mpg.

 

this is supposed to help his development?

He's less productive than Griffin this year, scary as that sounds. He needs time to develop but he's played so poorly I can't fault Skiles for not giving him significant minutes on a playoff team.

 

As I said, I think role player is Thabo's most likely future.

 

but why, after having his best game, would skiles not play him at all?

 

it's discouraging for a young player. it's no wonder he's been inconsistent.

 

the more important conventional statistics (OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+) for a baseball player aren't PT contingent either. but it's hard to judge a young player based on a small sample size, with inconsistent playing time.

[1908]

but why, after having his best game, would skiles not play him at all?

 

it's discouraging for a young player. it's no wonder he's been inconsistent.

He hasn't been inconsistent. His play has been consistently poor for the most part.

 

the more important conventional statistics (OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+) for a baseball player aren't PT contingent either. but it's hard to judge a young player based on a small sample size, with inconsistent playing time.

I don't think baseball and basketball stats compare well to each other, but if a 22-year-old prospect were to hit .150/.200/.300 over a full MLB season spent mostly on the bench, I don't think it'd be a stretch to be pessimistic about his future. A PER under 9 is atrocious.

[Magnetic Curses]

but why, after having his best game, would skiles not play him at all?

 

it's discouraging for a young player. it's no wonder he's been inconsistent.

He hasn't been inconsistent. His play has been consistently poor for the most part.

 

the more important conventional statistics (OBP/SLG/OPS/OPS+) for a baseball player aren't PT contingent either. but it's hard to judge a young player based on a small sample size, with inconsistent playing time.

I don't think baseball and basketball stats compare well to each other, but if a 22-year-old prospect were to hit .150/.200/.300 over a full MLB season spent mostly on the bench, I don't think it'd be a stretch to be pessimistic about his future. A PER under 9 is atrocious.

 

i'm not saying they do, but a lack of repetition can cause anyone to fail to progress adequately.

 

right now, skiles has to ride grodon and hinrich for as long as he can--but it'd be nice to see sefolosha get good minutes next season.

[1908]

Presale was today at 10am.

Sonofa.

Got tickets to game B in both the first and second rounds. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Jon]

There may not be a limit on the presale, so there are going to be very few seats left when they go "on sale" Saturday.

 

With the Bulls 11-4 in the division with 1 game left (@ Detroit) and the Cavs 9-5 with 2 games left (@ Detroit, vs. Milwaukee), am I correct in assuming we only need to tie the Cavs in overall record to get the tiebreaker since we have the better conference record?

[Derwood]

There may not be a limit on the presale, so there are going to be very few seats left when they go "on sale" Saturday.

 

With the Bulls 11-4 in the division with 1 game left (@ Detroit) and the Cavs 9-5 with 2 games left (@ Detroit, vs. Milwaukee), am I correct in assuming we only need to tie the Cavs in overall record to get the tiebreaker since we have the better conference record?

 

yes, the Bulls hold the tiebreaker over both the Pistons and the Cavs