Ryan Theriot=Bench Player. Period.

[Chris]

His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

 

Ryan had a great year with the Jaxx in 2005. Riot did have troubles early in his minor league career, but he has really had a great stride over 2005 & 2006, hitting .304 in 2005 in a tough league followed up by another .304 in AAA.

[rsmoler]

The bottom line is the Cubs need one more bat with some power. I'd go after the best player out there, whether it be an outfielder or middle infielder. The only positions that are set are 1B with Derrick Lee, 3B with Aramis Ramirez, if he stays, and catcher with Michael Barrett. Beyond that, the new manager can figure out how to play the other players based on who the big bat is that we get. I'm very happy to let Theriot, Cedeno and Patterson fight it out for second base next year if the new bat plays the outfield. Theriot's tremendous second half of the season has pulled him into the mix, but guarantees him nothing. I'm also willing to say that a stellar performance with 100 at bats in the major leagues is a pretty good indicator that the guy belongs in the majors, possibly as a starter, but he'll have to continue earning his keep. Let's face it, some guys just figure it out late.

[kroth1342]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

 

No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems.

 

You can't cite the pitchers spot as a gaping hole because there is no better option. The Cubs are in the NL. The pitcher has to bat.

 

How do you know the Cubs will ave "average or below average pitching" as well? You don't. That lineup plus a decent rotation (depending on who they pick up) equals a contending team.

 

I'm describing the Cubs pitching as average or below average because that's what it is right now - and I can't see it changing in the near future, barring significant moves. If we want Andruw Jones, we'll have to trade for him, and we'll probably trade some of our young pitchers away, thus reducing our depth even further. I could play your game and say that a team of

 

1B Lee

2B Below average player

SS Below average player

3B Ramirez

LF Murton

CF Jones

RF Jones

C Barrett

 

SP Zambrano

SP Zito

SP Prior

SP Liriano

SP Carpenter

 

is good too, but that's projecting too much now isn't it?

[KingCubsFan]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

 

No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems.

 

You can't cite the pitchers spot as a gaping hole because there is no better option. The Cubs are in the NL. The pitcher has to bat.

 

How do you know the Cubs will ave "average or below average pitching" as well? You don't. That lineup plus a decent rotation (depending on who they pick up) equals a contending team.

I think he is trying to say that, regardless of postition, we would have 3 positions in the batting order that would provide nothing in terms of production. That's not good for a team that would have to rely on its offense. Coincidentally, most of the teams you cited that were good despite having bad 2b were in the AL, so they had the DH to make up for their 2b. As for the pitching, you can't bring up hypotheticals because we don't know what our pitching will be like next year. We could sign Schmidt, Zito, Matsuke, and have Prior come back, and then we wouldn't even need Jones.

[soccer10k]

Let's just throw out a hypothetical here. What if the Cubs acquired Andruw Jones? A starting lineup of...

 

1B: Lee

2B: Theriot

SS: Izturis

3B: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

 

would be a solid lineup. Three big bats in the middle along with J. Jones, Barrett, and Murton. You are making it sound like we need a lineup like the Yankees here.

This lineup would also look good if we got Andruw Jones:

1b: Lee

2b: Neifi Perez

SS: Izturis

3b: Ramirez

LF: Murton

CF: Jones

RF: Jones

C: Barrett

Either way, we'd still have a huge hole

 

So you don't think those lineups are capable of scoring runs and aren't playoff quality lineups?

 

No, I think those lineups are capable of scoring runs, but with potentially three holes in the lineup (2B, SS, P) - they probably won't score enough. Combine that with average or below average pitching, and you've got problems.

 

You can't cite the pitchers spot as a gaping hole because there is no better option. The Cubs are in the NL. The pitcher has to bat.

 

How do you know the Cubs will ave "average or below average pitching" as well? You don't. That lineup plus a decent rotation (depending on who they pick up) equals a contending team.

 

I'm describing the Cubs pitching as average or below average because that's what it is right now - and I can't see it changing in the near future, barring significant moves. If we want Andruw Jones, we'll have to trade for him, and we'll probably trade some of our young pitchers away, thus reducing our depth even further. I could play your game and say that a team of

 

1B Lee

2B Below average player

SS Below average player

3B Ramirez

LF Murton

CF Jones

RF Jones

C Barrett

 

SP Zambrano

SP Zito

SP Prior

SP Liriano

SP Carpenter

 

is good too, but that's projecting too much now isn't it?

 

Yup, that's my game right there. Unrealistic offseason moves. You hit it right on the head. I believe I stated "decent rotation" not "all-star rotation". We are a major market team. There is no reason we shouldn't be able to add a big bat and a solid starter to the rotation in the offseason.

[KingCubsFan]

His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

 

Ryan had a great year with the Jaxx in 2005. Riot did have troubles early in his minor league career, but he has really had a great stride over 2005 & 2006, hitting .304 in 2005 in a tough league followed up by another .304 in AAA.

FWIW, Theriot's 2005 season is included in my numbers. I'm only missing this year's numbers

[WrigleyField 22]

I think he has shown enough to at least get a shot to compete with some other young 2B on a team that likely isn't going anywhere next season anyway.

[soccer10k]

I think he is trying to say that, regardless of postition, we would have 3 positions in the batting order that would provide nothing in terms of production. That's not good for a team that would have to rely on its offense. Coincidentally, most of the teams you cited that were good despite having bad 2b were in the AL, so they had the DH to make up for their 2b. As for the pitching, you can't bring up hypotheticals because we don't know what our pitching will be like next year. We could sign Schmidt, Zito, Matsuke, and have Prior come back, and then we wouldn't even need Jones.

 

Again, WE ARE AN NL TEAM. We compete against teams in the NL for the playoffs. We play in a division with 5 other NL teams. Every single NL team has a gaping hole in the pitchers spot. You know that no matter who you pick up and don't pick up, that the pitcher still has to bat.

[kroth1342]

I think he is trying to say that, regardless of postition, we would have 3 positions in the batting order that would provide nothing in terms of production. That's not good for a team that would have to rely on its offense. Coincidentally, most of the teams you cited that were good despite having bad 2b were in the AL, so they had the DH to make up for their 2b. As for the pitching, you can't bring up hypotheticals because we don't know what our pitching will be like next year. We could sign Schmidt, Zito, Matsuke, and have Prior come back, and then we wouldn't even need Jones.

 

Again, WE ARE AN NL TEAM. We compete against teams in the NL for the playoffs. We play in a division with 5 other NL teams. Every single NL team has a gaping hole in the pitchers spot. You know that no matter who you pick up and don't pick up, that the pitcher still has to bat.

 

Ok you made your f****** point.

 

FOR THOSE OF US WHO DIDN'T KNOW, THE CUBS ARE IN THE NL!!

 

Regardless, we need to upgrade our team on offense and pitching this off-season. If we better one at the expense of the other, we still may not be in the playoffs, hitting pitchers be damned.

[soccer10k]

I think he is trying to say that, regardless of postition, we would have 3 positions in the batting order that would provide nothing in terms of production. That's not good for a team that would have to rely on its offense. Coincidentally, most of the teams you cited that were good despite having bad 2b were in the AL, so they had the DH to make up for their 2b. As for the pitching, you can't bring up hypotheticals because we don't know what our pitching will be like next year. We could sign Schmidt, Zito, Matsuke, and have Prior come back, and then we wouldn't even need Jones.

 

Again, WE ARE AN NL TEAM. We compete against teams in the NL for the playoffs. We play in a division with 5 other NL teams. Every single NL team has a gaping hole in the pitchers spot. You know that no matter who you pick up and don't pick up, that the pitcher still has to bat.

 

Ok you made your f****** point.

 

FOR THOSE OF US WHO DIDN'T KNOW, THE CUBS ARE IN THE NL!!

 

Regardless, we need to upgrade our team on offense and pitching this off-season. If we better one at the expense of the other, we still may not be in the playoffs, hitting pitchers be damned.

 

 

Who says we couldn't upgrade both the offense and the pitching without doing so at the expense of the other?

[A New Era]

If we could trade for Andrew Jones in CF I would have no problem letting Theroit and Cedeno fight it out for 2B. If it meant we save even more money for a really good starter. I know you guys like your stats. But some atheletes are late bloomers you know. .

 

I play BBall with my friends and uncles. And I could never keep up. Even in my 20's. I'm 29 now and my friends and family tell me how much better I am now when they play me. Theroit wouldn't be the first player to have below average ML #'s to figure it out, and post good ML #'s. As stated his OBP is very good. And that's something we need more of on this team. .

[KingCubsFan]

If we could trade for Andrew Jones in CF I would have no problem letting Theroit and Cedeno fight it out for 2B. If it meant we save even more money for a really good starter. I know you guys like your stats. But some atheletes are late bloomers you know. .

 

I play BBall with my friends and uncles. And I could never keep up. Even in my 20's. I'm 29 now and my friends and family tell me how much better I am now when they play me. Theroit wouldn't be the first player to have below average ML #'s to figure it out, and post good ML #'s. As stated his OBP is very good. And that's something we need more of on this team. .

if we're going to be choosing a 2b based on raw athleticism, Cedeno would win hands-down. The only reason Theriot would take the job would be based on numbers.

[Mizzou]

If we could trade for Andrew Jones in CF I would have no problem letting Theroit and Cedeno fight it out for 2B. If it meant we save even more money for a really good starter. I know you guys like your stats. But some atheletes are late bloomers you know. .

I agree with every word of that. I'd add that if we sign Soriano to play somewhere in the outfield, or somehow manage to dump Jones somewhere and get some other big bat for the outfield, I'd be fine with Theriot at 2B next season.

 

Theriot

Murton

Lee

Ramirez

Soriano/Andruw Jones

Barrett

Jacque Jones

Izturis

 

That's not a bad lineup at all.

[TruffleShuffle]

OBP is more important than SLG

[Wheelimus]

How about we just get a good manager who realizes that our choices, thusfar, for 2B and SS in 2007 are

 

Ryan Theriot

Ronny Cedeno

Cesar Freaking Arthritic Piece of Crap Izturis

 

And put the best pegs in the best holes, so to speak.

 

To me, worst case Theriot and Cedeno up the middle, perhaps bring in an upgrade at one of the positions and let the guys duke it out as they may.

 

They both need to prove themselves. I want to see both in winter ball.

[TruffleShuffle]

How about we just get a good manager who realizes that our choices, thusfar, for 2B and SS in 2007 are

 

Ryan Theriot

Ronny Cedeno

Cesar Freaking Arthritic Piece of Crap Izturis

 

And put the best pegs in the best holes, so to speak.

 

To me, worst case Theriot and Cedeno up the middle, perhaps bring in an upgrade at one of the positions and let the guys duke it out as they may.

 

They both need to prove themselves. I want to see both in winter ball.

 

Problem is, none of those guys are good hitters. The offense can survive with one playing SS, but with any combination of the three at SS/2B just makes for too little punch in the lineup.

[Rob]

OBP is more important than SLG

 

Actually, I'm fairly convinced one of my giant tomes sitting on the bookshelf came to the opposite conclusion... though it was quite a close outcome. I suppose tomorrow I'll get to digging through the books and trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

[rynesrevenge0206]

I think people are just impressed to see a guy make the most of an opportunity for once. It doesn't happen that often around here. The Cubs have enough other holes to fill, it won't kill them to let Cedeno and Theriot fight for 2b next year. I agree he's not Ryne Sandberg, but a .350 OBP isn't out of the question at all. He's fighting for a spot, dangit, and I want to see how long he can keep it up.

 

I totally agree. I realize that, as Cubs fans, we have to look at everything in realistic terms, but how can you not like what this kid is doing up here? You can't argue with the 10 steals or the solid defense. I think the one kind of minor league player that has a shot to surprise at the major league level are scrappy, quick players with short swings.

 

Look at Furcal's minor league stats:

 

987 ABs

3 HRs

 

What does he do in his first year with the Braves?

 

455 ABs

4 HRs

 

Just 3 years later he was up to 15 HRs.

 

 

Also, Scott Podsednik before call-up:

 

Minor League: 13 HR/2,300 ABs

Major League: 10 HR/first 580 ABs

 

There is hope!

[CubsWin]

There is hope!

Now, now. Let's keep in mind that for many Cubs fans hope is a four-letter word. :wink:

 

Clearly, if the Cubs can acquire a better 2B than Theriot, they should. But if the choice was between Cedeno starting with Theriot on the bench or the other way around, I choose Theriot to start next season. Cedeno clearly has the greater upside.

 

Also, Pierre leading off in '07 = expensive and less money for a power hitter or FA starter. Theriot leading off in '07 = inexpensive, more money for a power hitter or FA starter and likely better OBP in that role.

 

It is also easier to add power in CF than it is to add it at 2B.

[CubsWin]

But I think we've gotten away from the original statement of this thread that Theriot is clearly a back-up infielder only.

 

That would mean that there are 30 2B that are clearly and without a doubt better than Theriot.

 

Given that Theriot has demonstrated a proven ability to get on base at around 35-36% of the time over the last three seasons, has base stealing ability and plays a solid defensive 2B. The question remains, are there 30 2B clearly better than him?

 

I don't know, I'm asking. Who are they? If there are, that should settle this debate once and for all.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

His numbers might have gone up a bit due to his AAA success, but not too much.

 

Ryan had a great year with the Jaxx in 2005. Riot did have troubles early in his minor league career, but he has really had a great stride over 2005 & 2006, hitting .304 in 2005 in a tough league followed up by another .304 in AAA.

 

His numbers went up once he gave up switch hitting (gave up on it before the 05 season).

Edited September 19, 2006 by CaliforniaRaisin

[Tracer Bullet]

OBP is more important than SLG

 

Actually, I'm fairly convinced one of my giant tomes sitting on the bookshelf came to the opposite conclusion... though it was quite a close outcome. I suppose tomorrow I'll get to digging through the books and trying to figure out how they came to that conclusion.

 

I don't want to hijack this thread and I don't know what book you have, but I think it's wrong. And I'm pretty sure Tango Tiger and Bill James agree with me. The folks at FJM have this in their definition of OPS:

 

Hard-core nerds will snivellingly tell you that OPS is stupid because OBP is way more important than SLG – Bill James himself, the king of all things stat-related in baseball, thinks that it is four times as important.

 

I'm not going to take the time to search for more support at this point, like I said, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I just wanted to point that out.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

They both need to prove themselves. I want to see both in winter ball.

 

Cedeno will be playing winter ball in Venezuela. I'm guessing Theriot will find a place in Latin America to play too.

[mg420]

sandbergs best year in the minors powerwise had him hitting 11 hr in 490 ab's and he hit a total of 24 in 4 years. not much there to indicate a 40 hr season and 282 lifetime hr's either is there? minor leauge #'s are not the end all and be all of indicators. players do sometimes exceed the production they had in the minors when they play in the big leagues. and btw, theriot is not much smaller than ryno-5-11 175 vs 6-2 180.

[soapy]

As Raisin noted, Theriot's numbers have been much more impressive since he gave up switch hitting. I would love to have him back on the team, but would regulate him to a super-utility role unless significant upgrades are made elsewhere (SS, CF, RF). Ryan could get plenty of playing time at 3B, SS, 2B and OF if he's in the super-utility role.