The Real Cost of not getting Furcal

[Soriano12]

Derrek Lee being out since April 19 is the real cost of not getting Furcal.

 

Add that to the pile. Of course, there's no way a GM can know something like that.

 

But it's [expletive] to go after a FA full-bore and then just give up inches before the finish line-------which is how I interpret what happened.

 

Hendry gave up inches before the finish line? No, he decided not to try to top Ned's insane offer.

 

We already offered him more than he was worth. You can't just say that if you really go after a free agent, you have to top the best offer no matter what.

 

Poor argument...so we couldn't offer 3 more million for Furcal?

WHy not? I didn't realize there is a salary cap in baseball?

 

Why not just give the 3+ milion to Furcal keep Nolasco and not give

6 million to

Perez

Rusch

No-Arm Wade

 

how are the dodgers looking in the standings btw? Looks like Ned did a good job.

[sherwood921]

Derrek Lee being out since April 19 is the real cost of not getting Furcal.

 

Add that to the pile. Of course, there's no way a GM can know something like that.

 

But it's [expletive] to go after a FA full-bore and then just give up inches before the finish line-------which is how I interpret what happened.

 

Hendry gave up inches before the finish line? No, he decided not to try to top Ned's insane offer.

 

We already offered him more than he was worth. You can't just say that if you really go after a free agent, you have to top the best offer no matter what.

 

Poor argument...so we couldn't offer 3 more million for Furcal?

WHy not? I didn't realize there is a salary cap in baseball?

 

Why not just give the 3+ milion to Furcal keep Nolasco and not give

6 million to

Perez

Rusch

No-Arm Wade

 

how are the dodgers looking in the standings btw? Looks like Ned did a good job.

 

So you're arguing that we should have overpaid even more for Furcal, because if we would have gotten him we would still have Nolasco and wouldn't have paid so much to Perez, Rusch, and Miller. None of those are directly related to not signing Furcal. As goony has argued very well...not signing Furcal did not force Hendry to trade for Pierre(maybe in his eyes it did), and it didn't force him to re-sign those guys way above what they're worth. Hendry's mistake was not missing out on Furcal, but rather trading for Pierre and signing those contracts. None of those moves had to be made. The fact of the matter is not that signing Furcal would have prevented those deals from happening, it's that those deals should not have happened no matter what the circumstance. We shouldn't have had to severely overpay for a player to prevent our GM from making stupid moves.

[Soriano12]

Derrek Lee being out since April 19 is the real cost of not getting Furcal.

 

Add that to the pile. Of course, there's no way a GM can know something like that.

 

But it's [expletive] to go after a FA full-bore and then just give up inches before the finish line-------which is how I interpret what happened.

 

Hendry gave up inches before the finish line? No, he decided not to try to top Ned's insane offer.

 

We already offered him more than he was worth. You can't just say that if you really go after a free agent, you have to top the best offer no matter what.

 

Poor argument...so we couldn't offer 3 more million for Furcal?

WHy not? I didn't realize there is a salary cap in baseball?

 

Why not just give the 3+ milion to Furcal keep Nolasco and not give

6 million to

Perez

Rusch

No-Arm Wade

 

how are the dodgers looking in the standings btw? Looks like Ned did a good job.

 

So you're arguing that we should have overpaid even more for Furcal, because if we would have gotten him we would still have Nolasco and wouldn't have paid so much to Perez, Rusch, and Miller. None of those are directly related to not signing Furcal. As goony has argued very well...not signing Furcal did not force Hendry to trade for Pierre(maybe in his eyes it did), and it didn't force him to re-sign those guys way above what they're worth. .

 

The Furcal siging was related to the Pierre trade. Had Furcal been in place I don't think Hendry would have given up Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre.

 

The Rusch, Perez, Miller signings are not related to Furcal directly...I was

just mearly using them as an example of how Hendry couldn't pay extra 3 mil for a player that could help us..yet flush 6 million down the toilet on three worthless players.

[sherwood921]

Derrek Lee being out since April 19 is the real cost of not getting Furcal.

 

Add that to the pile. Of course, there's no way a GM can know something like that.

 

But it's [expletive] to go after a FA full-bore and then just give up inches before the finish line-------which is how I interpret what happened.

 

Hendry gave up inches before the finish line? No, he decided not to try to top Ned's insane offer.

 

We already offered him more than he was worth. You can't just say that if you really go after a free agent, you have to top the best offer no matter what.

 

Poor argument...so we couldn't offer 3 more million for Furcal?

WHy not? I didn't realize there is a salary cap in baseball?

 

Why not just give the 3+ milion to Furcal keep Nolasco and not give

6 million to

Perez

Rusch

No-Arm Wade

 

how are the dodgers looking in the standings btw? Looks like Ned did a good job.

 

So you're arguing that we should have overpaid even more for Furcal, because if we would have gotten him we would still have Nolasco and wouldn't have paid so much to Perez, Rusch, and Miller. None of those are directly related to not signing Furcal. As goony has argued very well...not signing Furcal did not force Hendry to trade for Pierre(maybe in his eyes it did), and it didn't force him to re-sign those guys way above what they're worth. .

 

The Furcal siging was related to the Pierre trade. Had Furcal been in place I don't think Hendry would have given up Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre.

 

The Rusch, Perez, Miller signings are not related to Furcal directly...I was

just mearly using them as an example of how Hendry couldn't pay extra 3 mil for a player that could help us..yet flush 6 million down the toilet on three worthless players.

 

You're probably right, but that doesn't mean what he did was justified. It didn't force him to do anything. The best case scenario would have been to look within the organization (Walker) or elsewhere, not overspend on Pierre. You're making a strong point of Hendry being incompetent, not that Furcal was necessary.

Edited August 15, 2006 by sherwood921

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You're making a strong point of Hendry being incompetent, not that Furcal was necessary.

 

Exactly. Pierre v. Furcal isn't a choice between right and wrong, it's a choice between bad and worse.

[Mizzou]

The Furcal siging was related to the Pierre trade. Had Furcal been in place I don't think Hendry would have given up Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre.

 

The Rusch, Perez, Miller signings are not related to Furcal directly...I was

just mearly using them as an example of how Hendry couldn't pay extra 3 mil for a player that could help us..yet flush 6 million down the toilet on three worthless players.

Hendry has said repeatedly that he wanted Furcal AND Pierre.

[Soriano12]

You're making a strong point of Hendry being incompetent, not that Furcal was necessary.

 

Exactly. Pierre v. Furcal isn't a choice between right and wrong, it's a choice between bad and worse.

 

Since the all star break Furcal has been one of the hottest hitters in the National League.

 

His OBP has always been solid even when his average was down to start the year

 

IMO that is so important...a guy who's OBP isn't tied to avg. That means they are doing other things even when they are not hitting.

[Soriano12]

The Furcal siging was related to the Pierre trade. Had Furcal been in place I don't think Hendry would have given up Nolasco and Pinto for Pierre.

 

The Rusch, Perez, Miller signings are not related to Furcal directly...I was

just mearly using them as an example of how Hendry couldn't pay extra 3 mil for a player that could help us..yet flush 6 million down the toilet on three worthless players.

Hendry has said repeatedly that he wanted Furcal AND Pierre.

 

I heard that..and I don't buy it. With Furcal in place there would have been

no reason to dump 2 very good pitcihng prospects for Pierre...he did because he blew the Furcal deal.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You're making a strong point of Hendry being incompetent, not that Furcal was necessary.

 

Exactly. Pierre v. Furcal isn't a choice between right and wrong, it's a choice between bad and worse.

 

Since the all star break Furcal has been one of the hottest hitters in the National League.

 

His OBP has always been solid even when his average was down to start the year

 

IMO that is so important...a guy who's OBP isn't tied to avg. That means they are doing other things even when they are not hitting.

 

Furcal at his best is still not worth the contract he got, and especially not one greater than that which is what Hendry needed to offer.

 

In the same way, Pierre at his best was not worth what we gave to get him.

[jjgman21]

who knows about the internal workings of the Cubs, but I think it all starts with the hiring of managers that insist they have a fast minority in the top two spots of the batting order. I still hold out a shred of hope that Hendry's biggest fault is he trusts his manager to win and assembles the team his manager wants, and actually does a good job of doing that, it's just a faulty approach.

 

in 2002, Baylor insisted on trying to make Corey a leadoff hitter. Kimm came in and moved Bellhorn to the top and patched the two whole together until Mueller came back and after he was traded, giving the Cubs a slow but good obp ahead of Sammy.

 

then Baker came in and was given a lineup without two fast, minority, everyday players to bat at the top, so he did everything he could to wedge combinations of A-gone, Womack, Ramone, Goodwin, and CPatt into the 1-2 hole anyway. just-fast-enough Grudz was begrudgingly put at the top, and he cried cried cried that he needed a true leadoff man instead of just sticking Grudz at the top and allowing 'run-producing' Alou/first base platoon to hit down in the lineup.

 

many of you may recall in the offseason between 03-04, Dusty was asked who he intended on batting in the leadoff hole and he said 'Lofton,' not even knowing that Lofton was no longer a Cubs. the season comes, and he pulls a Baylor, insisting on trying to make Corey a leadoff hitter, moving him to the two whole when it doesn't work out, and again patches the top of the lineup with the likes of Neifi, Ramone, Macias, Ordonez, etc etc. the platoon of Grudz and Walker get a share of leadoff, and only about 60 combined ABs in the two whole only after Dusty cries cries cries that he doesn't have his leadoff man, and eventually the lightbulb goes off and he moves Lee up in the order.

 

I agree there has been a chain reaction, but I think and hope it goes back to the hiring of the manager and a belief that the manager can get the job done if given the roster he wants

[goonys evil twin]

I still hold out a shred of hope that Hendry's biggest fault is he trusts his manager to win and assembles the team his manager wants, and actually does a good job of doing that, it's just a faulty approach.

 

......................

 

I agree there has been a chain reaction, but I think and hope it goes back to the hiring of the manager and a belief that the manager can get the job done if given the roster he wants

 

That's a pretty big leap of faith, but it's probably also our only hope for success the next couple of years. The problem with that idea is how do you get him to hire a manager who will ask him for the right things?

[jmajew]

First off, if the cubs signed Furcal, Pierre still would have been on the team. Hendry wanted them both, he said it numerous times.

 

Second, If the cubs signed Furcal would we have had the money to waste on Jones? A lineup (assuming what i said earlier is correct) of Pierre, Furcal, Lee, Ramirez, Barrett, Walker, Patterson, Murton would not look all that bad, compared to what we got now.

[CubColtPacer]

First off, if the cubs signed Furcal, Pierre still would have been on the team. Hendry wanted them both, he said it numerous times.

 

Second, If the cubs signed Furcal would we have had the money to waste on Jones? A lineup (assuming what i said earlier is correct) of Pierre, Furcal, Lee, Ramirez, Barrett, Walker, Patterson, Murton would not look all that bad, compared to what we got now.

 

Furcal and Patterson would be an upgrade over Jones and Cedeno (Jones is 4 points worse in OBP then Patterson, and 52 points better in SLG, and Furcal has a 60-70 point edge in both)-but your lineup also adds about 10 million dollars more to the payroll then is currently there-Jones actually has made only about 1.2 million more then Patterson has this year. Furcal would have looked better on this team-but that salary would have hurt us for both 2007 and 2008 for a player who is a slightly above average offensive shortstop.

[jjgman21]

I still hold out a shred of hope that Hendry's biggest fault is he trusts his manager to win and assembles the team his manager wants, and actually does a good job of doing that, it's just a faulty approach.

 

......................

 

I agree there has been a chain reaction, but I think and hope it goes back to the hiring of the manager and a belief that the manager can get the job done if given the roster he wants

 

That's a pretty big leap of faith, but it's probably also our only hope for success the next couple of years. The problem with that idea is how do you get him to hire a manager who will ask him for the right things?

 

mass ritual suicide?

[Soriano12]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

[jjgman21]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

 

I've been advocating it for a couple months now. they like offensively challenged shortstops and he have them a plenty. I'd give them their choice of Izturis or Cedeno and their pick of one of our starters and a bullpen arm.

 

In fact, I'd give up Pie plus another prospect/Izturis/Cedeno too.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

 

I've been advocating it for a couple months now. they like offensively challenged shortstops and he have them a plenty. I'd give them their choice of Izturis or Cedeno and their pick of one of our starters and a bullpen arm.

 

In fact, I'd give up Pie plus another prospect/Izturis/Cedeno too.

 

DeJesus just signed a contract extension this past March. He is signed through 2011 (actually club option for 2011)

 

The Royals now have a good GM in Dayton Moore. I don't think they'll be giving players away.

[jjgman21]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

 

I've been advocating it for a couple months now. they like offensively challenged shortstops and he have them a plenty. I'd give them their choice of Izturis or Cedeno and their pick of one of our starters and a bullpen arm.

 

In fact, I'd give up Pie plus another prospect/Izturis/Cedeno too.

 

DeJesus just signed a contract extension this past March. He is signed through 2011 (actually club option for 2011)

 

The Royals now have a good GM in Dayton Moore. I don't think they'll be giving players away.

 

I don't think either of the deals I listed would be giving away. they aren't winning until 2011, so a nice package could land him. I'd be willing to sweeten either deal to get him. maybe Pie and 2 starters if they took Izturis.

[Soriano12]

plus...his last name is DeJesus..think of all the Big Lebowski references we could make :D

http://www.werner.com.ar/uploaded_images/jesus_quintana-758448.jpg

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

 

I've been advocating it for a couple months now. they like offensively challenged shortstops and he have them a plenty. I'd give them their choice of Izturis or Cedeno and their pick of one of our starters and a bullpen arm.

 

In fact, I'd give up Pie plus another prospect/Izturis/Cedeno too.

 

DeJesus just signed a contract extension this past March. He is signed through 2011 (actually club option for 2011)

 

The Royals now have a good GM in Dayton Moore. I don't think they'll be giving players away.

 

I don't think either of the deals I listed would be giving away. they aren't winning until 2011, so a nice package could land him. I'd be willing to sweeten either deal to get him. maybe Pie and 2 starters if they took Izturis.

 

Whoops. To clarify, I was referring to the post before yours written by DisgruntledCubsFan. It is in bold what I was referring to.

[jjgman21]

on a side note..if we don't re-sign Pierre..is there anyway we can

snag David DeJesus away from KC...they like to give away talent.

 

I've been advocating it for a couple months now. they like offensively challenged shortstops and he have them a plenty. I'd give them their choice of Izturis or Cedeno and their pick of one of our starters and a bullpen arm.

 

In fact, I'd give up Pie plus another prospect/Izturis/Cedeno too.

 

DeJesus just signed a contract extension this past March. He is signed through 2011 (actually club option for 2011)

 

The Royals now have a good GM in Dayton Moore. I don't think they'll be giving players away.

 

I don't think either of the deals I listed would be giving away. they aren't winning until 2011, so a nice package could land him. I'd be willing to sweeten either deal to get him. maybe Pie and 2 starters if they took Izturis.

 

Whoops. To clarify, I was referring to the post before yours written by DisgruntledCubsFan. It is in bold what I was referring to.

 

I saw your bold afterwards and thought that might be the case.