Article on Baker in Wall St. Journal

[Banedon]

Even the Wall St. Journal has an article in it detailing the ineptitude of Baker. Don't have a link I read it in the actual paper this morning. Article talks about his inability to fill out the line up card and how his mishandling of Prior and Wood contributed to their injury problems, also raises concern over how he has and continues to overwork Z.

 

Wood problems were way before Baker

 

You're wrong. In 1999 he had his TJ surgery, which was the culmination of a lifetime's worth of abuse. In 2000 he came back in May, and had your typical "back from elbow surgery" season. From 2001-2003 he made over 90 starts. His current woes began after a 2003 season that saw him throw 3545 pitches, which IIRC was the most of anyone in the league. 2003 also saw him throw the following #'s of pitches in games: 122 on April 12th, 141 pitches on May 10th, 121 on May 15th, 126 on June 29th, 129 on July 9th, 130 on July 19th, and 125 on August 27th. In total, he had 13 starts not including the postseason with more than 120 pitches.

 

Wood's problems begin the season after Baker arrived. There's no way around it. People can talk about mechanics or conditioning all they want, but the way he was worked in 2003 was asking for him to break down.

 

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

you are dead wrong, people were openly questioning what Baker was doing in 2003 by leaving these guys in games for so long. I recall one game in particular, I believe it was in Florida when Baker left Wood in a game to throw well over 120 pitches in 90+ degree heat so he could get a complete game. Dusty thinks too much about the battle which causes him to lose the war. If I recall correctly, Z faded at the end of 2003 due to the fact he had never worked that many innings or thrown that many pitches in a season before.

 

Don't forget that pretty much the main reason we lost game 6 in 2003 was that Prior was left in too long.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

Bound to? That's awful logic. Why push the matter?

 

I was complaining throughout the season and definitely in Game 2 of the NLCS, and I know I wasn't the only one.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

I blame Baker for riding Prior (with an Achiles injury!?) and Wood and not at all looking long term. The Cubs were set for a run of a few years with young pitching and Dusty burned it out in 2003. And didn't even get the Cubs to the World Series in 2003.

[Banedon]

I agree he should've been shut down, no doubt! But I think it's a rather moot point now...

 

How is it moot when it directly implicates Bakers bad decision making when it comes to pitching, the whole reason for this argument?

[C.C.]

Even the Wall St. Journal has an article in it detailing the ineptitude of Baker. Don't have a link I read it in the actual paper this morning. Article talks about his inability to fill out the line up card and how his mishandling of Prior and Wood contributed to their injury problems, also raises concern over how he has and continues to overwork Z.

 

Wood problems were way before Baker

 

You're wrong. In 1999 he had his TJ surgery, which was the culmination of a lifetime's worth of abuse. In 2000 he came back in May, and had your typical "back from elbow surgery" season. From 2001-2003 he made over 90 starts. His current woes began after a 2003 season that saw him throw 3545 pitches, which IIRC was the most of anyone in the league. 2003 also saw him throw the following #'s of pitches in games: 122 on April 12th, 141 pitches on May 10th, 121 on May 15th, 126 on June 29th, 129 on July 9th, 130 on July 19th, and 125 on August 27th. In total, he had 13 starts not including the postseason with more than 120 pitches.

 

Wood's problems begin the season after Baker arrived. There's no way around it. People can talk about mechanics or conditioning all they want, but the way he was worked in 2003 was asking for him to break down.

 

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

you are dead wrong, people were openly questioning what Baker was doing in 2003 by leaving these guys in games for so long. I recall one game in particular, I believe it was in Florida when Baker left Wood in a game to throw well over 120 pitches in 90+ degree heat so he could get a complete game. Dusty thinks too much about the battle which causes him to lose the war. If I recall correctly, Z faded at the end of 2003 due to the fact he had never worked that many innings or thrown that many pitches in a season before.

 

Wait a sec. Z didn't fade just overly pumped up. He was hitting 100 MPH on the gun in the playoffs. I do concur that some of those Wood starts had me scatching my head but to put the blame on Baker isn't entirely right. Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

[CubColtPacer]

Here is another quote from the article:

 

"Take the case of Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker, who once argued that "players who walk clog up the bases." That led him to ask the front office to get rid of such patient hitters as Mark Bellhorn, who went on to become an important cog in Boston's World Series winning team. In 2002 (the year before Mr. Baker got there), the Cubs drew 585 walks, sixth-best in the NL. Last year they drew 419, last in the NL. Those 166 walks far outweigh all his decisions about pinch hitting, or whether to have a player bunt - and effectively negated the breakout performance of MVP candidate Derrek Lee."

 

--Allen St. John

 

I agree to take more walks, but this comparison is interesting. We walked 166 less times in 2005-and scored a total of 3 less runs than 2002, and actually finished higher in the league-20th in runs in 2005, 22nd in 2002. While this is a good thing to point out, this was a pretty bad way to point it out. Also Bellhorn may not have been the greatest comparison either-he's only had 2 seasons with a 700+ OPS in his career, and only 3 years with an above average OBP or better (he didn't crack .700 the 3rd season because his slugging was under .300 for the season). Again, what he is trying to point out is fine-he just used examples that don't work very well.

[C.C.]

I agree he should've been shut down, no doubt! But I think it's a rather moot point now...

 

How is it moot when it directly implicates Bakers bad decision making when it comes to pitching, the whole reason for this argument?

 

Does Baker make that call or Hendry?

[Banedon]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Wait a sec. Z didn't fade just overly pumped up. He was hitting 100 MPH on the gun in the playoffs. I do concur that some of those Wood starts had me scatching my head but to put the blame on Baker isn't entirely right. Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

You can't be sure of that. No one can.

 

What Dusty and Larry enabled was Kerry to break down. Either break down or break down quicker.

[USSoccer]

 

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

Your continued ignorance of evidence to the contrary doesn't help your argument. If he was bound to break down why didn't he break down from 2001 to 2003? For that matter, why didn't he have complications from the elbow surgery in 2000? He had 3 and a half seasons for his mechanics to break him again, and yet they didn't. Why? COuld it be because he wasnt' asked to shoulder an unreasonable workload?

 

Furthermore, let's say you're correct and his mechanics made a breakdown inevitable. Why then risk throwing him 141 pitches in 7 innings in May against St Louis? Why throw him 122 pitches in 6 against San Diego in April? If his mechanics were so bad everyone knew he was due to break, why weren't measures taken to limit pitch counts, especially early in the season?

 

Extending him on September and October is one thing. You do what you need to do to win in the heat of a pennant race and in the playoffs. Throwing a guy 141 pitches thru 7 in May is idiotic. No matter how you try and argue it, Baker is a major culprit in his injury plagued 2004-2006.

Edited August 4, 2006 by USSoccer

[Banedon]

I agree he should've been shut down, no doubt! But I think it's a rather moot point now...

 

How is it moot when it directly implicates Bakers bad decision making when it comes to pitching, the whole reason for this argument?

 

Does Baker make that call or Hendry?

 

Both!

[USSoccer]

Don't forget that pretty much the main reason we lost game 6 in 2003 was that Prior was left in too long.

 

Also don't forget that Prior stayed in Game 2 long after we were winning by a large, large margin and threw abuot 35 unneccesary pitches at least.

[Mizzou]

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

Bound to? That's awful logic. Why push the matter?

 

I was complaining throughout the season and definitely in Game 2 of the NLCS, and I know I wasn't the only one.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

I blame Baker for riding Prior (with an Achiles injury!?) and Wood and not at all looking long term. The Cubs were set for a run of a few years with young pitching and Dusty burned it out in 2003. And didn't even get the Cubs to the World Series in 2003.

I find it hard to blame Dusty for riding Prior and Wood in 2003, considering that they were the ones that got us to the playoffs. Any manager would have done what Dusty did.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

Bound to? That's awful logic. Why push the matter?

 

I was complaining throughout the season and definitely in Game 2 of the NLCS, and I know I wasn't the only one.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

I blame Baker for riding Prior (with an Achiles injury!?) and Wood and not at all looking long term. The Cubs were set for a run of a few years with young pitching and Dusty burned it out in 2003. And didn't even get the Cubs to the World Series in 2003.

I find it hard to blame Dusty for riding Prior and Wood in 2003, considering that they were the ones that got us to the playoffs. Any manager would have done what Dusty did.

 

He rode them all season, even in May and June when the team was around .500. He rode them on ridiculously hot and humid days.

 

I don't doubt that there are many managers who'd have done that, but it's looking at the forest for the trees. It's a very short-sighted approach that has burned the Cubs ever since.

[badgercub]

No offense but you can't blame this on Baker. Kerry Wood was bound to break down again because of piss pour mechenics. I agree that 2003 didn't help his cause, but I didn't see any fans complaining when we were thisclose from going to the world series.

 

Bound to? That's awful logic. Why push the matter?

 

I was complaining throughout the season and definitely in Game 2 of the NLCS, and I know I wasn't the only one.

 

It's like people complaining about Ozzie letting pitchers complete games in the playoffs and WS, and now his staff looks tired. If you have a chance at the ring all bets are off. Sorry I don't blame Baker for Riding Prior and Wood because every manager would do the same. Those were his strengths that year.

 

I blame Baker for riding Prior (with an Achiles injury!?) and Wood and not at all looking long term. The Cubs were set for a run of a few years with young pitching and Dusty burned it out in 2003. And didn't even get the Cubs to the World Series in 2003.

I find it hard to blame Dusty for riding Prior and Wood in 2003, considering that they were the ones that got us to the playoffs. Any manager would have done what Dusty did.

 

Not when you look at specifics. Dusty would continually leave them in games when the Cubs were up by more than 3+ runs. In my earlier example, I believe the Cubs were up 6-0 when he left Wood in to throw 120+ pitches. That is just stupid.

[C.C.]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a gmae is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

Edited August 4, 2006 by C.C.

[J.R.]

No matter what Baker does, there's always someone at the ready to defend the indefensible. It's astounding.

[USSoccer]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

Which is why you take steps to prevent his mechanics from causing an injury. Like, say making sure he doesn't through nearly 3600 pitches! Or throw 141 in May and 121 in April.

 

You keep ignoring mountains of evidence that contradict everything you're saying. Blaming everything on Wood's mechanics is the easy way out. You have to look at the root cause, which is his negligent overuse.

[Banedon]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

The problem is that we're presenting a case for Baker's guilt using statistics and common sense situations where Baker has made poor decisions, and you're presenting opinion as indisputable fact.

 

You also keep arguing about Wood and Prior, and ignore the fact that Zambrano is being significantly overused year after year, and the fact that he hasn't broken down yet doesn't mean that it's not going to catch up with him.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Banedon

[badgercub]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

[C.C.]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries or non arm related? I agree that Baker rode Prior and Wood, but any manager would do the exact same thing. You have a chance to get to the WS, you do whatever it takes. I'm not defending Baker as a great manager. In fact I can't stand the guy! But I don't fault him for 2003. We had a chance to get to the WS and for me there was no next year at the time...

Edited August 4, 2006 by C.C.

[badgercub]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries?

 

Even when he has been healthy, he has not been the same pitcher that he was in 2003. I believe this may be partially due to his "freak" injuries, but it hasn't helped that Dusty continued to abuse him through those same injuries.

[Banedon]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries?

 

He was bound to break down anyway.

[USSoccer]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries or non arm related? I agree that Baker rode Prior and Wood, but any manager would do the exact same thing. You have a chance to get to the WS, you do whatever it takes. I'm not defending Baker as a great manager. In fact I can't stand the guy! But I don't fault him for 2003. We had a chance to get to the WS and for me there was no next year at the time...

 

That explains overuse on September and October. It doesn't explain it in April and May.

[badgercub]

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries or non arm related? I agree that Baker rode Prior and Wood, but any manager would do the exact same thing. You have a chance to get to the WS, you do whatever it takes. I'm not defending Baker as a great manager. In fact I can't stand the guy! But I don't fault him for 2003. We had a chance to get to the WS and for me there was no next year at the time...

 

There were many instances where Baker left them in games when the Cubs had a comfortable lead, to throw well in excess of 100+ pitches. I agree there are times when you ride your aces, especially in tight games and coming down the stretch in a pennant race. But when you are up by more than 3 runs heading into the 7th inning, you don't leave your ace in there and wear them out for their next starts.

[C.C.]

Let's face it Kerry Wood was due to break down, it's a matter of time.

 

No.

 

You are sure of that? See my point is all of this is arbitrary! You can't assume for a fact that Baker was the reason for these guys breaking down? Sure I agree 140 pitches in a inning is just way too much, but Wood mechanics being flawed from that start can't be ignored.

 

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. I think it shows a direct correlation between how they were overused in 2003 and the problems suffered since. In 2003 Prior and Wood combined for 32 wins, since then they have 30. What other LOGICAL explanation is there?

 

 

 

Haven't most of Prior injuries been fluke injuries?

 

Even when he has been healthy, he has not been the same pitcher that he was in 2003. I believe this may be partially due to his "freak" injuries, but it hasn't helped that Dusty continued to abuse him through those same injuries.

 

He looked good for the 2nd half of last year until he got hit with a line drive in the elbow.