Busty or Dusty?

[halplm]

So... we haven't had any young talent come through since Dusty showed up... not just rookies, but young guys in general. Murton seems to have made his adjustments, but he's the only one...

 

Meanwhile, young guys shipped out of the system have done exceptionally well...

 

Is this because the organization is horrendously bad at judging talent? Or is it because Dusty and his staff try and "re-teach" all the young guys that show up in Chicago?

 

I don't really want this to be a Dusty bashing thread... I'm really curious as to why this seems to be the case...

[CubColtPacer]

Can you give me an idea about what young talent has slipped out during Dusty's tenure? Yes, we haven't had any youngsters develop, that's for sure. The only ones I can really remember losing are guys like Bobby Hill, Hee Sop Choi, Francis Beltran, Brendan Harris, and others-and none of them have really developed into anything. So I think it has simply been that the farm system was simply not nearly as good as advertised.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Well, since Shawon Dunston who have the Cubs produced(position player wise)?

 

Mark Grace

Rafael Palmeiro

Joe Girardi

 

Who else?

 

 

I do think that it both organizational and the current regime. The organization has a bad track record and will continue to do so under the teachings of Baker and company(i.e aggressiveness). Matt Murton is the perfect example of this.

[dalgreen]

So... we haven't had any young talent come through since Dusty showed up... not just rookies, but young guys in general. Murton seems to have made his adjustments, but he's the only one...

 

Meanwhile, young guys shipped out of the system have done exceptionally well...

 

Is this because the organization is horrendously bad at judging talent? Or is it because Dusty and his staff try and "re-teach" all the young guys that show up in Chicago?

 

I don't really want this to be a Dusty bashing thread... I'm really curious as to why this seems to be the case...

 

Outside of my favorite GM, Dallas Green's era, when have the Cubs produced a series of position prospects over the last four decades? So, it 's not just Baker. I think the organization has been horrible at judging talent for almost all of my Cub fan life.

[NewUserName]

I would contend that if Hill and Choi were just allowed to play in 2003 we would have productive players right now. I have said this before the last step on the development ladder is Major leagues. The Cubs and their Fans have been really quick with rookies and young players. A player needs to come to the majors and be given a opportunity to struggle. There just isnt a lot of Albert Pujols out there who just show up and are HOFers right away. I am glad that the Cubs are letting Cedeno and Murton play this year. I think both will only improve and be productive players in the next couple of years. In another post on this board a poster called Cedeno a rookie flop. Of course he is flopping that is what rookies do. Sadly if he was given more opportunities last year instead of our savior he would be past most of this by now. Look at this years All Star team, How many of these guys were All Stars when they were rookies. Most were just put on a team that gave them opportunities to grow. The Cubs through most of my life have been a lot more interested in giving guys like Bobby Murcer, Dave Kingman, Bill Buckner, Keith Moreland, Ron Cey, Juan Pierre, Jacque Jones, Eric Karros, Willie Wilson, Jerry Mumphries, Larry Bowa, Todd Zeille, Bob Dernier, Jeff Blauser, Gary Gaetti, Lenny Harris and many many more opportunities. Players that are mostly past prime and had marginal success in other places. I think in some way they do this to keep fans happy. Right now I think they are really in a good spot to pull a Florida Marlins between now and this offseason. Really they do have players that could bring back some good young value. However they are afraid they would alienate their fanbase, which isnt really true. If they put together a good young team that played like the Marlins do it would only take a little time for most fans to see the positives in this. What they are probably going to end up doing is bringing in Jason Schmidt and Carlos Lee and keep Juan Pierre. Way overpay for all of them. They will compete for the "division", maybe make the playoffs. If so get the snot beat out of them by a better NL team. If by chance the make the WS, they will really get blasted. The fans will be clamouring. Everyone will be saying "I told you we should have kept Dusty." Than the year after be close to .500 and aging and stuck with some bad contracts. Than by 2009 as bad as they are this year. This is the cycle that is the Chicago Cubs. If they would just take a chance and have a real youth movement. It may actually pay off into a World Series championship in a few years. My guess is this will not happen with the current ownership.

[CubColtPacer]

I would contend that if Hill and Choi were just allowed to play in 2003 we would have productive players right now. I have said this before the last step on the development ladder is Major leagues. The Cubs and their Fans have been really quick with rookies and young players. A player needs to come to the majors and be given a opportunity to struggle. There just isnt a lot of Albert Pujols out there who just show up and are HOFers right away. I am glad that the Cubs are letting Cedeno and Murton play this year. I think both will only improve and be productive players in the next couple of years. In another post on this board a poster called Cedeno a rookie flop. Of course he is flopping that is what rookies do. Sadly if he was given more opportunities last year instead of our savior he would be past most of this by now. Look at this years All Star team, How many of these guys were All Stars when they were rookies. Most were just put on a team that gave them opportunities to grow. The Cubs through most of my life have been a lot more interested in giving guys like Bobby Murcer, Dave Kingman, Bill Buckner, Keith Moreland, Ron Cey, Juan Pierre, Jacque Jones, Eric Karros, Willie Wilson, Jerry Mumphries, Larry Bowa, Todd Zeille, Bob Dernier, Jeff Blauser, Gary Gaetti, Lenny Harris and many many more opportunities. Players that are mostly past prime and had marginal success in other places. I think in some way they do this to keep fans happy. Right now I think they are really in a good spot to pull a Florida Marlins between now and this offseason. Really they do have players that could bring back some good young value. However they are afraid they would alienate their fanbase, which isnt really true. If they put together a good young team that played like the Marlins do it would only take a little time for most fans to see the positives in this. What they are probably going to end up doing is bringing in Jason Schmidt and Carlos Lee and keep Juan Pierre. Way overpay for all of them. They will compete for the "division", maybe make the playoffs. If so get the snot beat out of them by a better NL team. If by chance the make the WS, they will really get blasted. The fans will be clamouring. Everyone will be saying "I told you we should have kept Dusty." Than the year after be close to .500 and aging and stuck with some bad contracts. Than by 2009 as bad as they are this year. This is the cycle that is the Chicago Cubs. If they would just take a chance and have a real youth movement. It may actually pay off into a World Series championship in a few years. My guess is this will not happen with the current ownership.

 

The problem with that is both Choi and Hill were given time with their next franchises, and they didn't develop with them. Would they have done so in Chicago? It's impossible to tell-but a good indicator is if they developed at their new franchise, and they didn't. I do understand the point of your argument though that we have been really bad at playing young players-but as you said you want Choi and Hill-would you rather have them somewhat productive or not over Ramirez and Lee? Basically, we got value out of those two-just in a different way.

This is actually what happens a great deal with the big market teams. Most of their farm system is used up in trades. The problem is, our farm system is getting weaker, and it may get to the point where we can't even use them in trades for productive players anymore.

[dalgreen]

I would contend that if Hill and Choi were just allowed to play in 2003 we would have productive players right now. I have said this before the last step on the development ladder is Major leagues. The Cubs and their Fans have been really quick with rookies and young players. A player needs to come to the majors and be given a opportunity to struggle. There just isnt a lot of Albert Pujols out there who just show up and are HOFers right away. I am glad that the Cubs are letting Cedeno and Murton play this year. I think both will only improve and be productive players in the next couple of years. In another post on this board a poster called Cedeno a rookie flop. Of course he is flopping that is what rookies do. Sadly if he was given more opportunities last year instead of our savior he would be past most of this by now. Look at this years All Star team, How many of these guys were All Stars when they were rookies. Most were just put on a team that gave them opportunities to grow. The Cubs through most of my life have been a lot more interested in giving guys like Bobby Murcer, Dave Kingman, Bill Buckner, Keith Moreland, Ron Cey, Juan Pierre, Jacque Jones, Eric Karros, Willie Wilson, Jerry Mumphries, Larry Bowa, Todd Zeille, Bob Dernier, Jeff Blauser, Gary Gaetti, Lenny Harris and many many more opportunities. Players that are mostly past prime and had marginal success in other places. I think in some way they do this to keep fans happy. Right now I think they are really in a good spot to pull a Florida Marlins between now and this offseason. Really they do have players that could bring back some good young value. However they are afraid they would alienate their fanbase, which isnt really true. If they put together a good young team that played like the Marlins do it would only take a little time for most fans to see the positives in this. What they are probably going to end up doing is bringing in Jason Schmidt and Carlos Lee and keep Juan Pierre. Way overpay for all of them. They will compete for the "division", maybe make the playoffs. If so get the snot beat out of them by a better NL team. If by chance the make the WS, they will really get blasted. The fans will be clamouring. Everyone will be saying "I told you we should have kept Dusty." Than the year after be close to .500 and aging and stuck with some bad contracts. Than by 2009 as bad as they are this year. This is the cycle that is the Chicago Cubs. If they would just take a chance and have a real youth movement. It may actually pay off into a World Series championship in a few years. My guess is this will not happen with the current ownership.

 

You are assuming that we have had high quality young position players, which we have not. I blame the Cub organization for Patterson's struggles because they rushed him. But I will give Baker credit for sticking with Patterson even when many on here thought he should have been benched, and he's pretty much stuck with Cedeno. I think too many of us read one or two publications that rate our players, and we automatically assume they are can't miss players. Four or five years ago, many of us swore that guys like Patterson, Jackson, Kelton, Dubois, Montanez would be playing in Wrigley right now. I think we need to rededicate ourselves to scouting, both domestic and international. The way I see it, a lot of our prospects seem to be just athletes and not guys who really know how to play the game.

[sporrer17]

We've had some talented young players, but we always seem to have that one aging vet who's way past his prime (or was never any good anyway) playing in front of them.

 

The problem is everyone expects a rookie to come in and produce like he's a 5 year vet and has been around the block a few times. This is an ADJUSTMENT period...the ones that adjust usually come on strong in year 2-3 of starting full-time, and the one's that don't...well ask Kevin Orie.

 

The positives I am going to take from this year...as of right now, Murton seems to be bouncing back from a very difficult stretch. That's a GREAT sign, he's figuring things out, he's still taking walks at a fairly good rate (.350+ OBP) and he's still very young. We've had some starters (and relievers) get some very valuable experience for next year. They may not be relied upon as full-time starters, but the experience is there so that they won't be as bad if they are thrust into duty again next year.

[ZipDog]

I would contend that if Hill and Choi were just allowed to play in 2003 we would have productive players right now. I have said this before the last step on the development ladder is Major leagues. The Cubs and their Fans have been really quick with rookies and young players. A player needs to come to the majors and be given a opportunity to struggle. There just isnt a lot of Albert Pujols out there who just show up and are HOFers right away. I am glad that the Cubs are letting Cedeno and Murton play this year. I think both will only improve and be productive players in the next couple of years. In another post on this board a poster called Cedeno a rookie flop. Of course he is flopping that is what rookies do. Sadly if he was given more opportunities last year instead of our savior he would be past most of this by now. Look at this years All Star team, How many of these guys were All Stars when they were rookies. Most were just put on a team that gave them opportunities to grow. The Cubs through most of my life have been a lot more interested in giving guys like Bobby Murcer, Dave Kingman, Bill Buckner, Keith Moreland, Ron Cey, Juan Pierre, Jacque Jones, Eric Karros, Willie Wilson, Jerry Mumphries, Larry Bowa, Todd Zeille, Bob Dernier, Jeff Blauser, Gary Gaetti, Lenny Harris and many many more opportunities. Players that are mostly past prime and had marginal success in other places. I think in some way they do this to keep fans happy. Right now I think they are really in a good spot to pull a Florida Marlins between now and this offseason. Really they do have players that could bring back some good young value. However they are afraid they would alienate their fanbase, which isnt really true. If they put together a good young team that played like the Marlins do it would only take a little time for most fans to see the positives in this. What they are probably going to end up doing is bringing in Jason Schmidt and Carlos Lee and keep Juan Pierre. Way overpay for all of them. They will compete for the "division", maybe make the playoffs. If so get the snot beat out of them by a better NL team. If by chance the make the WS, they will really get blasted. The fans will be clamouring. Everyone will be saying "I told you we should have kept Dusty." Than the year after be close to .500 and aging and stuck with some bad contracts. Than by 2009 as bad as they are this year. This is the cycle that is the Chicago Cubs. If they would just take a chance and have a real youth movement. It may actually pay off into a World Series championship in a few years. My guess is this will not happen with the current ownership.

 

You are assuming that we have had high quality young position players, which we have not. I blame the Cub organization for Patterson's struggles because they rushed him. But I will give Baker credit for sticking with Patterson even when many on here thought he should have been benched, and he's pretty much stuck with Cedeno. I think too many of us read one or two publications that rate our players, and we automatically assume they are can't miss players. Four or five years ago, many of us swore that guys like Patterson, Jackson, Kelton, Dubois, Montanez would be playing in Wrigley right now. I think we need to rededicate ourselves to scouting, both domestic and international. The way I see it, a lot of our prospects seem to be just athletes and not guys who really know how to play the game.

 

Don't worry, Dal.....the lousy coaching staff and system at the National League Chicago club would do their best to screw up any potential these players exhibited. Heck! Let's give these losers an extension so they can screw up another generation of Cubs players! Let's keep this Business As (Loser) Usual tradition going for another fifty years!