Rowand Available?

[Caryatid]

I agree it's not worth breaking the bank, or the farm system, to get Rowand. But "barely above average" is a lot better than "way below average," which is what we have now.

Sorry, Pierre isnt below avg... nor is Jones. Rowand cant bat lead off... so I wouldnt want to give up Pierre to get him...On the other hand, Murton is below average... but he is also still in his first FULL year as a major leaguer.....so I am not ready to give up on him just yet unless it means getting a big name powerhitter to take his spot in left.

 

Pierre's career OPS+ says otherwise. Pierre is mediocre at his very best.

 

Jones, however, has a career OPS+ of 101, which is just barely above average, so you're right on that one.

[longshots89]

I agree it's not worth breaking the bank, or the farm system, to get Rowand. But "barely above average" is a lot better than "way below average," which is what we have now.

Sorry, Pierre isnt below avg... nor is Jones. Rowand cant bat lead off... so I wouldnt want to give up Pierre to get him...On the other hand, Murton is below average... but he is also still in his first FULL year as a major leaguer.....so I am not ready to give up on him just yet unless it means getting a big name powerhitter to take his spot in left.

 

Pierre's career OPS+ says otherwise. Pierre is mediocre at his very best.

 

Jones, however, has a career OPS+ of 101, which is just barely above average, so you're right on that one.

 

 

derrick lee is also a career .276 hitter. but that doesnt mean he isnt the .335 hitter he was last year and this year before the injury.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I agree it's not worth breaking the bank, or the farm system, to get Rowand. But "barely above average" is a lot better than "way below average," which is what we have now.

Sorry, Pierre isnt below avg... nor is Jones. Rowand cant bat lead off... so I wouldnt want to give up Pierre to get him...On the other hand, Murton is below average... but he is also still in his first FULL year as a major leaguer.....so I am not ready to give up on him just yet unless it means getting a big name powerhitter to take his spot in left.

 

Pierre's career OPS+ says otherwise. Pierre is mediocre at his very best.

 

Jones, however, has a career OPS+ of 101, which is just barely above average, so you're right on that one.

 

 

derrick lee is also a career .276 hitter. but that doesnt mean he isnt the .335 hitter he was last year and this year before the injury.

 

A guy with a career OPS+ of 124 is more likely to hit a season at 177 (as well as remain significantly above average).

[Hacking Out Machine]

If the Cubs trade Pierre and/or Jones, the Phillies are rumored to be shopping Aaron Rowand. He is not the big name player most of us are looking for, but he seems to add a spark to the lineup. I must admit that I dislike most things involving the White Sox, but Rowand did impress me with his attitude and hustle. The White Sox made a good deal in getting Thome for Rowand, but they have suffered in CF since he was traded.

 

"Attitude, hustle." Sounds like he's right up Hendry's alley. His bloody nose early this year will probably make him about an additional $10Million over his career and a rep as a valuable "charachter guy" that someone will undoubtedly overvalue. He's an average player, at best. There are probably 10-15 guys in AAA that can match his overall production.

 

On a side note, with the Sox struggling, I can't wait until we start hearing people bemoan the Rowand trade because it stole away the Sox's "Heart and Soul" or whatever inane garbage. Thome has single handedly won about 20 games for the Sox this year with his power and presence in the lineup. It was a masterstroke by Williams, and if they hadn't made that trade, with the pitching they've gotten this year, they's be out of the race.

 

I think that is quite an exaggeration since many AAA players never make it to the majors, let alone become starters in CF for a World Series winner.

I agree that Thome has saved the White Sox this year, but they expected some production out of CF and haven't gotten any. Thome has been an outstanding addition to the Sox, but they have missed the production and "Heart and Soul" that Rowand has provided. The Sox were even rumored as possible trade partners to get Rowand back.

 

You don't think there are 10-15 guys in AAA who could hit .275 with 13-15 HR and play good defense in CF? We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Also, as for the last paragraph, take Thome off this team, and put Rowand back, and the Sox are at .500 right now, even with all the red-ass-ness, want to, character, whatever.

 

If there were, they would be starters in the majors and not playing at AAA.

As for the comment on Thome, I agreed that Thome has saved the Sox this year, but Rowand did add something to the Sox that they lack this year. It's not an either/or discussion. If the Sox could get Rowand back, they would run away with the division this year.

 

This first sentence is a very naive statement. By assuming that, you are assuming that every GM in baseball has every player's potential adequately pegged. Every year, there are guys that are brought up from AAA and provide league average or better production, and sometimes these guys are 28-30 years old, who were finally given a shot. Your statement assumes that someone's potential is limited to what league some GM feels he should play at. Do you think there is some type of magic indicator that measures when a guy can put up league average numbers, and when that indicator lights up, the player is automatically penciled in a big league lineup every day?

 

As for your second comment, Rowand is hitting .255 .317 .425. His defense is no better than Anderson's. You're saying the Sox could go from 6.5 games out to "running away" with the division (up 6 games) if they acquire an average hitting(and his numbers aren't average)) CF? Aaron Rowand by himself is not worth 12 games in the standings, I don't care how many gutsy plays he makes or pats on the back he gives his teammates.

[dvdd127]

I agree it's not worth breaking the bank, or the farm system, to get Rowand. But "barely above average" is a lot better than "way below average," which is what we have now.

Sorry, Pierre isnt below avg... nor is Jones. Rowand cant bat lead off... so I wouldnt want to give up Pierre to get him...On the other hand, Murton is below average... but he is also still in his first FULL year as a major leaguer.....so I am not ready to give up on him just yet unless it means getting a big name powerhitter to take his spot in left.

 

Pierre's career OPS+ says otherwise. Pierre is mediocre at his very best.

 

Jones, however, has a career OPS+ of 101, which is just barely above average, so you're right on that one.

I was saying that Pierre isnt below avgerage compared to other leadoff hitters. overall yes... he is way below average.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I agree it's not worth breaking the bank, or the farm system, to get Rowand. But "barely above average" is a lot better than "way below average," which is what we have now.

Sorry, Pierre isnt below avg... nor is Jones. Rowand cant bat lead off... so I wouldnt want to give up Pierre to get him...On the other hand, Murton is below average... but he is also still in his first FULL year as a major leaguer.....so I am not ready to give up on him just yet unless it means getting a big name powerhitter to take his spot in left.

 

Pierre's career OPS+ says otherwise. Pierre is mediocre at his very best.

 

Jones, however, has a career OPS+ of 101, which is just barely above average, so you're right on that one.

I was saying that Pierre isnt below avgerage compared to other leadoff hitters. overall yes... he is way below average.

 

Statistics say otherwise.

[dvdd127]

Ok.. I will compare Pierre to Soriano.

 

Pierre Career Stats:

SPLIT	G		AB		R		H		2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB		BA	OBP	SLG
Career	942	3820	568	1154		137	55	10	264	303	.302	.351	.375

Soriano Career Stats:

SPLIT	G		AB		R		H		2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB		BA	OBP	SLG
Career	900	3654	578	1027		224	18	193	527	194	.281	.325	.511

Both have been leadoff hitters for at least 50% of their careers... and overall Pierre has a better AVG and OBP. oh yah.. and Pierre has more stolen bases

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Ok.. I will compare Pierre to Soriano.

 

Both have been leadoff hitters for at least 50% of their careers... and overall Pierre has a better AVG and OBP. oh yah.. and Pierre has more stolen bases

 

And Soriano crushes him in the SLG/OPS department. Now compare Pierre to Damon and Sizemore and Granderson and Ichiro and Rollins and Roberts (both) and Youkilis and Reyes and Podsednik and Biggio and Weeks.

[dvdd127]

Ok.. I will compare Pierre to Soriano.

 

Both have been leadoff hitters for at least 50% of their careers... and overall Pierre has a better AVG and OBP. oh yah.. and Pierre has more stolen bases

 

And Soriano crushes him in the SLG/OPS department. Now compare Pierre to Damon and Sizemore and Granderson and Ichiro and Rollins and Roberts (both) and Youkilis and Reyes and Podsednik and Biggio and Weeks.

ok i did

Pierre:

OBP AVG SLG

.351 .302 .375

 

Damon:

OBP AVG SLG

.353 .290 .433

 

Weeks:

OBP AVG SLG

.348 .256 .397

 

 

Hmm...looks like Pierre is average compared to them. I am not saying I wound not rather have one of them... just saying with what is available... I would rather have Pierre.

[Hacking Out Machine]

Ok.. I will compare Pierre to Soriano.

 

Both have been leadoff hitters for at least 50% of their careers... and overall Pierre has a better AVG and OBP. oh yah.. and Pierre has more stolen bases

 

And Soriano crushes him in the SLG/OPS department. Now compare Pierre to Damon and Sizemore and Granderson and Ichiro and Rollins and Roberts (both) and Youkilis and Reyes and Podsednik and Biggio and Weeks.

ok i did

Pierre:

OBP AVG SLG

.351 .302 .375

 

Damon:

OBP AVG SLG

.353 .290 .433

 

Weeks:

OBP AVG SLG

.348 .256 .397

 

 

Hmm...looks like Pierre is average compared to them. I am not saying I wound not rather have one of them... just saying with what is available... I would rather have Pierre.

 

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

 

But he tries, really, REALLY hard.

[dvdd127]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times.

 

His age and his career are a very good indication he will not start walking.

 

His lack of K's is not an asset. Just putting the ball in play is worthless if all you do is ground out to 2nd repeatedly. I'd much rather he strike out 100 times a year but actually produce than not strikeout but also not hit worth a crap.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times.

 

In the argument he doesn't get on base enough, you counter with he doesn't strike out a lot? Oh, brother.

[Caryatid]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times.

 

Just because you don't strike out that much doesn't mean you're a selective hitter. Quite the opposite, actually. A player who strikes out looking a lot shows that he has a pretty good command of the strike zone, and probably is getting called out on borderline pitches.

 

A guy who doesn't strike out very much and doesn't have a .360 AVG is showing that, while he is good at making contact with the baseball, he isn't necessarily good at selecting the best pitch and hitting it to the appropriate spot.

 

Pierre has never shown an ability to be selective at the plate and draw walks. His lack of strikeouts doesn't really pertain to whether or not he's selective.

[Caryatid]

One more thing: Pierre's career Pitches per plate appearance is 3.43. That means he's swinging early and swinging often. That doesn't bode well for this change in walk rate.

[CubsBullsBears]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

[CubColtPacer]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

 

Which Corey Patterson? The one from 2003, the one from 2004 and this year, or the one from 2005? I think you're right if you choose 2004 and this year, but I'm just curious to which Patterson you were referring to.

[soapy]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

 

Pretty much:

 

Patterson: .283/.316/.424 ($2.8 million)

Pierre: .279/.320/.369 ($5.75 million)

[Hacking Out Machine]

I'm guessing you definitely DON'T want the Pierre we saw in the first half, right? You know, the one who was the biggest reason that the Cubs offense was and is the worst in baseball this year, and the biggest reason that the games he is actually doing something in don't mean anything.

 

Until he starts walking, which is never, he's going to be a .320 OBP guy with no power and a noodle arm. I'll pass.

yes.. I definitely do NOT want the Pierre we saw in the first half, and what makes you say he will never start walking?? it isnt like he is striking out 50+ times a season. the most k's he had in any one season was 52 in 2002 with Colorado and he only had one other season where he k'ed more then 40 times.

 

What in the world do strikeouts have to do with it? Others have already made the point, but I say he will never start walking because he never has walked in the past, and because he swings at everything. I'm also not the optimistic sort that believes a calm air of selectivity will magically come over him, especially within this hammerheaded organization. Maybe I'm being unfair in my expectation...

[dvdd127]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

 

Which Corey Patterson? The one from 2003, the one from 2004 and this year, or the one from 2005? I think you're right if you choose 2004 and this year, but I'm just curious to which Patterson you were referring to.

because i know CubBullsBears. I can say that I am pretty sure he means the KP from 2005

[CubColtPacer]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

 

Which Corey Patterson? The one from 2003, the one from 2004 and this year, or the one from 2005? I think you're right if you choose 2004 and this year, but I'm just curious to which Patterson you were referring to.

because i know CubBullsBears. I can say that I am pretty sure he means the KP from 2005

 

Well, I won't be completely sure until I hear that from him, but if that's true, they are nothing alike, including Pierre having 70 points higher OBP.

[dvdd127]

To me, so far Pierre has been playing like Corey Patterson, but w/o the strikeouts, power, and cannonball arm.

 

Which Corey Patterson? The one from 2003, the one from 2004 and this year, or the one from 2005? I think you're right if you choose 2004 and this year, but I'm just curious to which Patterson you were referring to.

because i know CubBullsBears. I can say that I am pretty sure he means the KP from 2005

 

Well, I won't be completely sure until I hear that from him, but if that's true, they are nothing alike, including Pierre having 70 points higher OBP.

your absolutly correct..... no doubt about it. Pierre is much better than the KP from 2005.

[CubsBullsBears]

Patterson during the majority of his time in Chicago. Except Pierre isn't striking out as much, which is why his OBP is higher, b/c he can use speed to beat out hits when he puts it in play. Other than that, he's Patterson w/o the power and cannonball arm.

[Magnetic Curses]

If the Cubs trade Pierre and/or Jones, the Phillies are rumored to be shopping Aaron Rowand. He is not the big name player most of us are looking for, but he seems to add a spark to the lineup. I must admit that I dislike most things involving the White Sox, but Rowand did impress me with his attitude and hustle. The White Sox made a good deal in getting Thome for Rowand, but they have suffered in CF since he was traded.

 

"Attitude, hustle." Sounds like he's right up Hendry's alley. His bloody nose early this year will probably make him about an additional $10Million over his career and a rep as a valuable "charachter guy" that someone will undoubtedly overvalue. He's an average player, at best. There are probably 10-15 guys in AAA that can match his overall production.

 

On a side note, with the Sox struggling, I can't wait until we start hearing people bemoan the Rowand trade because it stole away the Sox's "Heart and Soul" or whatever inane garbage. Thome has single handedly won about 20 games for the Sox this year with his power and presence in the lineup. It was a masterstroke by Williams, and if they hadn't made that trade, with the pitching they've gotten this year, they's be out of the race.

 

I think that is quite an exaggeration since many AAA players never make it to the majors, let alone become starters in CF for a World Series winner.

I agree that Thome has saved the White Sox this year, but they expected some production out of CF and haven't gotten any. Thome has been an outstanding addition to the Sox, but they have missed the production and "Heart and Soul" that Rowand has provided. The Sox were even rumored as possible trade partners to get Rowand back.

 

You don't think there are 10-15 guys in AAA who could hit .275 with 13-15 HR and play good defense in CF? We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Also, as for the last paragraph, take Thome off this team, and put Rowand back, and the Sox are at .500 right now, even with all the red-ass-ness, want to, character, whatever.

 

If there were, they would be starters in the majors and not playing at AAA.

As for the comment on Thome, I agreed that Thome has saved the Sox this year, but Rowand did add something to the Sox that they lack this year. It's not an either/or discussion. If the Sox could get Rowand back, they would run away with the division this year.

 

could rowand pitch when he was with the sox? did he pitch? because that's what they are missing, not something metaphysical.