Hits or walks Dusty?

[gerby23]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

[otis89]

Murton wasn't aggressive enough. That's why we lost. :roll:

[nilodnayr]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

 

Dude, like you said, its not the walks that made the cards beat us, its the timely hitting!

[CubinNY]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

 

Dude, like you said, its not the walks that made the cards beat us, its the timely hitting!

 

No, it pretty much was the walks.

[Jehrico]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

The problem wasn't that we walked more of them than the other way around, the problem was we gave up most of our walks all in the same inning! What made me sick is the guys that we walked were So Taguchi, John Rodriguez, and Hector Luna. There's no reason to be giving free passes to guys like that.

[gerby23]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

 

Dude, like you said, its not the walks that made the cards beat us, its the timely hitting!

Agreed, but timely hitting AFTER walks. So, pretty much the walks.

[nilodnayr]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

 

Dude, like you said, its not the walks that made the cards beat us, its the timely hitting!

Agreed, but timely hitting AFTER walks. So, pretty much the walks.

 

Man, what you guys dont understand is that you cant control if you are walked at not. You just gotta go up there hacking and if the pitcher throws you a strike you gotta swing at it. Especially if its the first pitch. What you can control is timely hitting, you just gotta be clutch...DUDE.

[cubfan1955]

Well, we outhit the Cards, Great!

But they outwalked us and got their hits after said walks and they won. Still want us free swinging and clogging bases Dusty, Sarge, & Clines?

Anybody know how many times this has happened in the Dusty Regime?

 

 

Of course absolute stellar baserunning hurt a bit too. :?

Cubbie from TX in AR

The problem wasn't that we walked more of them than the other way around, the problem was we gave up most of our walks all in the same inning! What made me sick is the guys that we walked were So Taguchi, John Rodriguez, and Hector Luna. There's no reason to be giving free passes to guys like that.

 

It was the only way he could get to Pujols. :wink:

[CubfaninCA]

Both teams got on base the same number of times. "Timely hitting" won the game.

 

Now if you want to argue that walks rattle a pitcher, go right ahead.

[nilodnayr]

Both teams got on base the same number of times. "Timely hitting" won the game.

 

Now if you want to argue that walks rattle a pitcher, go right ahead.

 

God, I'm even right when I'm sarcastic.

[CubfaninCA]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

[Big Z 38]

If we didn't have Johnnie B. Baker Jr. calling the shots, we'd have had a better constructed lineup

[Magnetic Curses]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

[radarluv1]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

 

walks also increase pitch count. This lets you get to the other teams middle relievers, usually a teams weakness, quicker. cobs never seem to do this.

[Magnetic Curses]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

 

walks also increase pitch count. This lets you get to the other teams middle relievers, usually a teams weakness, quicker. cobs never seem to do this.

 

the thing is that the cubs also strike out a lot, which should increase pitch counts as well, but doesn't. the cubs manage to strike out on 3 pitches more than any other team, i believe.

[Danny82]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

 

walks also increase pitch count. This lets you get to the other teams middle relievers, usually a teams weakness, quicker. cobs never seem to do this.

 

the thing is that the cubs also strike out a lot, which should increase pitch counts as well, but doesn't. the cubs manage to strike out on 3 pitches more than any other team, i believe.

 

The Cubs don't strike out a lot. People continue to say this without empirical evidence to support such an assertion. In fact, they are currently 13th in the NL this season in strike outs. They were 14th in the NL last year. So, how is it that the Cubs "strike out a lot"???

 

Also, while I too wish this team would walk more, it isn't a matter of which is more "sexy"...a hit is more valuable than a walk.

[Guest]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

 

walks also increase pitch count. This lets you get to the other teams middle relievers, usually a teams weakness, quicker. cobs never seem to do this.

 

the thing is that the cubs also strike out a lot, which should increase pitch counts as well, but doesn't. the cubs manage to strike out on 3 pitches more than any other team, i believe.

 

The Cubs don't strike out a lot. People continue to say this without empirical evidence to support such an assertion. In fact, they are currently 13th in the NL this season in strike outs. They were 14th in the NL last year. So, how is it that the Cubs "strike out a lot"???

 

Also, while I too wish this team would walk more, it isn't a matter of which is more "sexy"...a hit is more valuable than a walk.

True, but batters do not get to choose between a hit and a walk. They get to choose to try and put the ball in play or take the pitch. If there is an option to walk on a given pitch (ie - the ball is not in the zone), the walk will almost always be superior to expanding your zone and making what is likely to be weak contact on a pitch outside of the strike zone.

 

(Value of a walk) > (value of a swing at a ball outside strike zone)

[Magnetic Curses]

i realize that 6 walks and 4 hits is very sexy to some, but i'll take 6 hits and 4 walks any day of the week.

 

getting hits isn't a problem with this team.

 

hits will come and go. if you're slumping, but still good at recognizing good pitches from bad ones, you can help the team by getting on base--or, as i like to put it, not making an out. i'm sure a toolsy player that is very bad at not making outs is very "sexy" to some, but i'll take a fat, slow player with no arm that is good at not making outs.

 

this team's problem is that it doesn't walk enough. nice BA, crappy OBP. that's why patient teams outcore us.

 

i guess it's all in what you find "sexy"--perhaps making outs at a rapid clip makes you feel all funny inside, but not me, just angry.

 

walks also increase pitch count. This lets you get to the other teams middle relievers, usually a teams weakness, quicker. cobs never seem to do this.

 

the thing is that the cubs also strike out a lot, which should increase pitch counts as well, but doesn't. the cubs manage to strike out on 3 pitches more than any other team, i believe.

 

The Cubs don't strike out a lot. People continue to say this without empirical evidence to support such an assertion. In fact, they are currently 13th in the NL this season in strike outs. They were 14th in the NL last year. So, how is it that the Cubs "strike out a lot"???

 

Also, while I too wish this team would walk more, it isn't a matter of which is more "sexy"...a hit is more valuable than a walk.

 

you're right. i made the mistake of looking at the rankings backwards. i assumed that being 14th in Ks meant the opposite--that being 1st would be good, not bad. sorry for the error. no need to be rude, it was an honest mistake.

 

as for the term "sexy", i hope you're not quoting me, because i was quoting someone else, so you should probably double quote that if you were talking to me.

 

a hit is more valuable than a walk, but a team needs to be able to do both well, not one or the other. walks are a huge part of the game, when combined with BA, they make OBP, which measures how many times someone doesn't make an out--which in turn is infinitely more valuable than simple speed or the ability to sac bunt--which are peripheral skills, not fundamentals.

[jjgman21]

 

Man, what you guys dont understand is that you cant control if you are walked at not.

 

I want the Cubs to be more patient and swing at better pitches and take more walks. with that said, there's some truth to this comment, all kidding aside. the hitter has no control over an umpire's right arm going up in the air on those pitches that Morgan calls "acceptable strikes" (aka balls that are called strikes).

 

you can claim that those calls "all even out," but I've watched enough Cubs baseball to know with a high degree of certainty that those calls do not even out when you wear the big red C.

[badgercub]

Hits>walks>outs.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

Man, what you guys dont understand is that you cant control if you are walked at not.

 

I want the Cubs to be more patient and swing at better pitches and take more walks. with that said, there's some truth to this comment, all kidding aside. the hitter has no control over an umpire's right arm going up in the air on those pitches that Morgan calls "acceptable strikes" (aka balls that are called strikes).

 

you can claim that those calls "all even out," but I've watched enough Cubs baseball to know with a high degree of certainty that those calls do not even out when you wear the big red C.

 

so what, just swing at everything and let God sort them out?

 

nope, a hitter CAN control what he swings at and what he doesn't. and, as Tim alluded to before, he can control if he swings at a pitch that he can't hit effectively. for example, i'd rather have a guy like adam dunn than a guy that doesn't strike out very much and puts the ball in play very ineffectively--ala juan pierre (who doesn't walk either).

 

it's not about putting the ball in play, it's about putting it in play effectively. all i hear on the radio is "just put the ball in play, good things will happen" (from the same baseball insider-geniuses that would tell their non-sinkerball pitchers to "just let them put the ball in play, good things will happen"). one does not put pressure on an opposing pitcher or defense by slapping at a bad pitch (if the ump is going to call that bad pitch a strike, then so be it, if it's not strike 3 at least you didn't get yourself out prematurely and will make the pitcher throw a few more pitches).

 

the more i think about it, the more i believe that it's the coaching and upper management that needs to go. either hendry's stupid, stubborn, or blind to not recognize the plate discipline problems that this team has--and dusty's probably all 3.

 

would i make a better GM than hendry? how couldn't i? if all i did was issue a mandate to all of my farm teams that they must lead their respective leagues in walks or the manager gets fired--i'd be doing the major league team a huge service just in that. however, hendry insists on finding increasingly more archaic ways to win--which makes him a terrible GM.

[jjgman21]

 

Man, what you guys dont understand is that you cant control if you are walked at not.

 

I want the Cubs to be more patient and swing at better pitches and take more walks. with that said, there's some truth to this comment, all kidding aside. the hitter has no control over an umpire's right arm going up in the air on those pitches that Morgan calls "acceptable strikes" (aka balls that are called strikes).

 

you can claim that those calls "all even out," but I've watched enough Cubs baseball to know with a high degree of certainty that those calls do not even out when you wear the big red C.

 

so what, just swing at everything and let God sort them out?

 

nope, a hitter CAN control what he swings at and what he doesn't. and, as Tim alluded to before, he can control if he swings at a pitch that he can't hit effectively. for example, i'd rather have a guy like adam dunn than a guy that doesn't strike out very much and puts the ball in play very ineffectively--ala juan pierre (who doesn't walk either).

 

it's not about putting the ball in play, it's about putting it in play effectively. all i hear on the radio is "just put the ball in play, good things will happen" (from the same baseball insider-geniuses that would tell their non-sinkerball pitchers to "just let them put the ball in play, good things will happen"). one does not put pressure on an opposing pitcher or defense by slapping at a bad pitch (if the ump is going to call that bad pitch a strike, then so be it, if it's not strike 3 at least you didn't get yourself out prematurely and will make the pitcher throw a few more pitches).

 

the more i think about it, the more i believe that it's the coaching and upper management that needs to go. either hendry's stupid, stubborn, or blind to not recognize the plate discipline problems that this team has--and dusty's probably all 3.

 

would i make a better GM than hendry? how couldn't i? if all i did was issue a mandate to all of my farm teams that they must lead their respective leagues in walks or the manager gets fired--i'd be doing the major league team a huge service just in that. however, hendry insists on finding increasingly more archaic ways to win--which makes him a terrible GM.

 

my thought is mostly directed to when there is a full count and other 2 strike counts. it seems to me the ability to lay off close pitches in those at bats is incredibly important when it comes to drawing walks. I am by no means saying it is the exclusive cause of the Cubs inability to draw walks. swinging early in the count at good/borderline pitches is probably the main cause, but the uncertainty of what an ump does is a cause.

 

I recall numerous times last year where CPatt earned a walk when a 3-2 sinker stayed inside, yet the ump rung him up anyway. now that Corey is no longer the Cubs whipping boy for umpires, it seems like they are giving Murton the same treatment, even though he has great strikezone judgment.

 

there is an organizational problem, it don't think as deep as many imply, but it really is a Catch 22. let the pitch go and hope the ump makes the just call, or swing at a pitch you can't hit hard anyway. I really don't have a suggestion. the point of my post was more 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.'

 

what I would like to see is the Cubs taking those close pitches, building a reputation as a selective hitter and eventually 'earning' some calls. unfortunately I have no confidence the umps will ever turn it around for players wearing the big red C, with the exception of the occassional players who suddenly earn superstar treatment because of swinging the bat, who have seen those calls going their way a little more consistently after becoming premier players (ie. Sosa and Lee).

[RynoRules]

I think you hit on it - if they had a rep for being selective, they might get some more calls. But, like anything else, you have to earn it.

 

In the meantime, I'll settle for Jones taking a pitch - any pitch - before May 15. :wink:

[goonys evil twin]

I don't buy for a second that the Cubs low walk totals is due to umpires screwing them over.

 

It's not a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The Cubs aren't patient, and that damns them to bad offensive numbers. It's not the jersey, the logo, a curse or the umps. It's an oft-stated organizational philosophy that completely disregards the value of the walk. It's no accident.

[Danny82]

would i make a better GM than hendry? how couldn't i? if all i did was issue a mandate to all of my farm teams that they must lead their respective leagues in walks or the manager gets fired--i'd be doing the major league team a huge service just in that. however, hendry insists on finding increasingly more archaic ways to win--which makes him a terrible GM.

 

The solution is obviously not as simple as you would make it seem.