Surprise, surprise: "Everything Man" over Cedeno's

[Andy]

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

 

Ha! That's pretty funny. The two great organizations in ATL and OAK both gave up on Cruz because of the "reliever label Dusty stuck to him"? Maybe it is instead just because he was overated and not that good. Nah, blame it on Dusty.

 

The whole question of damage done by a manager is really virtually impossible to prove. If a player is ruined by a manager and never recovers, people who defend the manager will say that "he just wasn't any good," when in fact it very well could have been that he was screwed up at a prime age and never recovered. Then again, he could have never been good in the first place. Either way, the actual damage done by a bad manager is impossible to really prove.

 

Its possible that Cruz, Choi, Hill, etc. were just bad. Its also possible that Baker's bad managing ruined them forever. But simply because the players have not been good since leaving the Cubs does not absolve Baker from responsibility, nor does it prove that they weren't any good in the first place. Its solely an unprovable opinion...either way.

The problem with Cruz and Choi is that is they played badly in their opportunities to earn jobs, and in 2003 we were in a playoff race, so we were in no position to let young guys take their lumps.

 

Hill just plain bombed out.

[CubsWin]

Could someone explain Dusty's love affair with this guy?

 

I heard that Neifi was originally signed to a minor-league deal. So not only was there no interest from any other club, he had to take a minor league deal with the Cubs. And now, he'll probably ending up starting at short.

 

Good thing Dusty's not putting any pressure on Ronny.

So Baker is supposed to let Cedeno play and play regardless of his performance?

 

I agree that Cedeno should be given a good solid 4 weeks to get going. Clearly, Cedeno has the higher upside and from all appearances he is being given a chance to reach it. But, if after a month, Ronny is performing below Perez's career averages, then the prudent move for a manager to make, at least one who wants to win games and win them now, would be to sit Cedeno for a while, maybe even send him to AAA and let him work some things out.

 

How would that not be the smart move?

[CubsWin]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

Thank you, Bruce Miles.

 

I feel the exact same way. Nothing has changed. This is no time and there is no reason to panic. Lets just get behind Ronny now.

[frostwyrm]

I agree that Cedeno should be given a good solid 4 weeks to get going.

 

Even Todd Hollandsworth got 5 weeks, and he had no business being a starter in the first place.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

Thank you, Bruce Miles.

 

I feel the exact same way. Nothing has changed. This is no time and there is no reason to panic. Lets just get behind Ronny now.

 

No one is panicing. Some, including myself, are just saying that we're in a bad position in regards to our starting SS.

[CubsWin]

I agree that Cedeno should be given a good solid 4 weeks to get going.

 

Even Todd Hollandsworth got 5 weeks, and he had no business being a starter in the first place.

Hollandsworth officially started from April 4th to May 9th, thats technically 4 1/2 weeks, so we are both right. How about that for diplomacy? :wink:

 

Since we are splitting hairs now, during those 4 1/2 weeks, he started 25 out of 32 games. He was hot from the beginning going .333/.440/.524 in the first 6 games. So maybe Dusty made the right choice after all. But then Todd went 0-4 in back-to-back games, and Dusty didn't hesitate to go to the unproven rookie for consecutive starts. When Hollandsworth returned he showed signs of life through the end of April. But once May rolled around he was dreadful. And after only 5 starts in May, Baker sat him for an extended period to give the Dubois a look.

 

Do the above decisions seem unrational to you? According to Matt Murton, Baker eased him into the line-up and it helped him succeed. Couldn't Dusty have been trying to ease Dubois in as well? It seems to me that Dusty treated Hollandsworth with a fairly short leash which would make sense given Todd's career norms. What is so bad about how Baker handled that situation?

 

Whatever, "a good solid 4 weeks" or 4 1/2 weeks, all I'm saying is Cedeno should be given his shot.

[CubsWin]

I heard that Neifi was originally signed to a minor-league deal. So not only was there no interest from any other club, he had to take a minor league deal with the Cubs.

Are you referring to this off season?

[CubsWin]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

Thank you, Bruce Miles.

 

I feel the exact same way. Nothing has changed. This is no time and there is no reason to panic. Lets just get behind Ronny now.

 

No one is panicing. Some, including myself, are just saying that we're in a bad position in regards to our starting SS.

I understand and agree that it looks like the Cubs are not in a very good position at SS at the moment. But I'd have to disagree that no one is panicking or blowing things out of proportion.

 

And now, he'll probably ending up starting at short.

Baker is just dying to get Perez in there...

Worst manager in the bigs.

 

Period.

Neifi might be more stable, but all he provides is stability in the failure department...Neifi won't be improving from his awful self.

This is Dubios all over again.

Giving Neifi playing time will ensure losing.

And thats just from the first 4 pages.

 

Now most if not all of the above posters also made very rational comments as well. And I don't think any of those posters are bad Cub fans or are ridiculously pessimistic. But I do think that the statements above are reactionary, overblown and panicky.

[SanJoseCubsFan]

I don't think a 1-3 record with a 5.46 ERA in 2003 helps your argument. This is his only year under Dusty. I hope Bobby Hill with 4 AB under Dusty is not your backup for more ruined "can't miss" prospects.

 

 

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

[SanJoseCubsFan]

Come on, Baker managed each of these guys for 1 season they were not held down having hateful daily slogan thrown at them by Baker for years on end . (Hill had 4 ABs under Baker).

 

 

Please tell me which is the more reasonable conclusion. Baker killed Choi's confidence by starting him 70% of the time before he got hurt in 2003 or he has a massive hole in his swing and can't hit left hand pitching. Hill was ruined by his 4 ABs under Baker or he was overhyped and no better than a backup. Cruz had 6 starts under Baker with a 5.xx ERA and ruined his confidence by putting him in the bullpen for 1/2 the year or he has control problems and ML players have adjusted to him.

 

 

This is MLB, if Baker had done some sort of harm to them in the small amount of time he had with them, you get a new start under a different organization (or many in the case with these guys)

 

These guys have issues starting at the ML level, plain and simple.

 

 

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

 

Ha! That's pretty funny. The two great organizations in ATL and OAK both gave up on Cruz because of the "reliever label Dusty stuck to him"? Maybe it is instead just because he was overated and not that good. Nah, blame it on Dusty.

 

The whole question of damage done by a manager is really virtually impossible to prove. If a player is ruined by a manager and never recovers, people who defend the manager will say that "he just wasn't any good," when in fact it very well could have been that he was screwed up at a prime age and never recovered. Then again, he could have never been good in the first place. Either way, the actual damage done by a bad manager is impossible to really prove.

 

Its possible that Cruz, Choi, Hill, etc. were just bad. Its also possible that Baker's bad managing ruined them forever. But simply because the players have not been good since leaving the Cubs does not absolve Baker from responsibility, nor does it prove that they weren't any good in the first place. Its solely an unprovable opinion...either way.

[Bruce Miles]

Wow, I spend 12 hours traveling yesterday (including a stop-over in Denver with a two-hour delay), and I see a 10-page thread.

 

I hope we have one this long when Neifi cures cancer in the next few days! Just kidding. But nobody can get the blood flowing like ol' Neif. (My favorite Neifi quote is this: "You see the color of my glove? It's Gold. Make them hit it to me." He said something like that in L.A. last year to Koronka to relax the kid, and John pitched well enough to get the Cubs a win.)

 

I talked to somedoby from the Cubs yesterday on the phone while at the airport. He assured me that now is not the time to be having the Ronny-Neifi discussion and that if Ronny was going bad after a month into the season, which he did NOT think was going to happen, then we can talk. So I think the whole thing is a lot of ado about nothing. (Not that you guys _ and me _ are wrong in spending 10 pages on it. That kind of passion is why we follow baseball.)

 

My take on the other guys mentioned here is that the Cubs did not ruin Juan Cruz. At every level, he had pitching coaches tearing out their hair, and the Braves did a good job of "hiding" him in the pen while he was there. You think Leo Mazzone didn't have enough? Juan simply wouldn't listen.

 

Hill was overhyped, and kudos to his agent for getting him the big dough. Kudos to Jim Hendry for getting Aramis for him.

 

I had a scout say in April of 2003 three things: Bobby Hill was not that good a player; Hee Seop Choi would be in the minor leagues before the season was out; and if he could have one pitcher off the Cubs for his team _ other than Wood, Prior, Zambrano _ it would be...drum roll...Joe Borowski.

 

I felt bad for Choi. Who knows what would have happened had he not gotten hurt? But it's up to him now to show he's a major-leaguer.

 

Again, I think this is all good discussion.

 

Got to unpack, get a haircut, see the family, order some Lou Malnati's pizza and pack again for Cincinnati.

[BigbadB]

Thanks for sharing, Bruce. Personally, I'm hoping Cedeno is just saving all of his big hits for the games that actually count.

 

I might not be opposed to Neifi taking Dusty's job if the Cubs start off slow. He's already on the payroll and he seems to have a better relationship with the pitchers.

 

NEIFI PEREZ FOR PLAYER/MANAGER!! :D

[USSoccer]

Someone made a comment earlier in the tread that I thought was pretty good, and it was along the lines of "The most revealing thing is that Dusty is staying with Ronny despite a bad spring."

 

That's noteworthy in and of itself. Murton earned his spot outright by having a great spring to back up his status going into camp, and we all were skeptical to see Baker go with 2 rookis everyday. Ronny's spring gave Baker every excuse to platoon him at the least, or bench him for Neifi, but he isn't doing that. Yet.

 

Even though I don't like defending Baker, I think he's suprised me by sticking by a struggling young player. We'll see how long it lasts if Ronny struggles through April.

[CubsWin]

Someone made a comment earlier in the tread that I thought was pretty good, and it was along the lines of "The most revealing thing is that Dusty is staying with Ronny despite a bad spring."

 

That's noteworthy in and of itself. Murton earned his spot outright by having a great spring to back up his status going into camp, and we all were skeptical to see Baker go with 2 rookis everyday. Ronny's spring gave Baker every excuse to platoon him at the least, or bench him for Neifi, but he isn't doing that. Yet.

 

Even though I don't like defending Baker, I think he's suprised me by sticking by a struggling young player. We'll see how long it lasts if Ronny struggles through April.

Well said, USS.