Surprise, surprise: "Everything Man" over Cedeno's

[sonofsamiam]

If ST numbers are meaningless, Marshall is sent to the minors and not given the 4 spot in the rotation. Cedeno doesn't deserve a starting job based on one good year (mostly in the minors or the WL equivalent) anyway considering that he was an offensive black hole beforehand.

 

Cedeno is going to magically learn how to take a pitch? With our coaches? That's a huge handicap right there. Either you have good plate discipline like Murton before you come up to our big league club, or you don't develop it. Ronny's going to have a rough time this year.

 

Ronny's K/BB ratio was horrible until his stint in AAA (245 AB). It looks like he's reverted to form in the VWL and in ST.

 

Dusty doesn't throw people under the bus, even if he is an excuse maker for his team's performance.

 

If Cedeno can't earn a job based on one good year, why can Neifi earn the job by default based off of several terrible years?

 

Exactly. Plus, while Cedeno was definitely bad before last year, he was 22 last year. It's not like he struggled through his early 20s and suddenly had a good minor-league season at age 27 or something.

 

And yes, he needs to develop patience, but at his worst he still is more patient than Neifi.

[CubinNY]

 

This is Dubios all over again.

 

And where is Dubois now? It's not like Dusty benched him, we traded him and then he went on to tear things up. The Indians (who everyone here loves) sure haven't found a use for him.

 

And I don't blame Dusty if he benches Cedeno. He's playing terribly right now, and there's no guarantee he'll bust out of it. I've always been concerned about him, since he really just has about one year of success at the plate after being awful for four seasons.

 

This is Hendry's fault, not Dusty's.

 

1. ST NUMBER DO NOT MATTER. Every hitter goes into slumps.

 

2. It is Dubois all over again becuase Cedeno hasn't exactly been given a rining vote of confidence from the skipper. He will be looking over his shoulder every AB. Vet's like Neifi don't have that problem.

 

3. Cedeno has shown that he can hit. The question for him is pitch selection.

 

4. Neifi is terrible. The thought of him out there everyday shouldn't make Cub fan happy. The Cubs could maybe handle a black hole at the plate if they had strong enough offense from other positions. But the don't. That is Hendrys Fault. Not giving Cedeno at least @200 ABs on a consistent basis to show if he can hit will be Dusty's fault

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Hendry made his bed, Dusty needs to lie in it. When they committed to go with Cedeno at SS, they need to stick to that commitment.

 

Rookies struggle. But, sitting on the bench in favor of a guy who is not major league caliber will not do a single thing to help him through his struggles.

 

Sticking with him through the tough times will help him mature and toughen him up.

 

To me, Neifi is a late inning defensive replacement, a last option PH, and a starter if for some reason Cedeno can't play.

 

A short stint in Spring Training should not change that.

 

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress.

 

You are correct. It won't guarantee a thing. But sitting him on the bench won't do a thing for him either. Stick him out there and see what what happens.

 

But, just because sticking Corey Patterson out there everyday in spite of his struggles didn't do a thing for him doesn't mean it can't work out for Cedeno.

 

Someone brought up Sandberg's struggles in his first major league stint. Should Lee Elia have sent Sandberg packing and replaced him with Keith Moreland or Pat Tabler when he went 1 for his first 30?

 

Because the Cubs don't have "better" options to stick at SS, I think you have to see what you really have in Cedeno by letting him play everyday. Maybe if the Cubs organization didn't send Cedeno to AAA in favor of Enrique Wilson last year, we might have a better idea of what kind of player Cedeno might be in the major leagues. Stupid decisions like this is why they are in this position right now of not knowing what they really have at SS.

 

There were SS's available this offseason. Julio Lugo and Edgar Renteria come to mind. They passed because they felt Cedeno could adequately do the job. They made that bed, now they have to lie in it. It's going to be a long season if they give up on Cedeno prematurely to go with the "known" production of one Neifi Perez.

 

I totally agree. My problem isn't with Cedeno as a player, it's with the organization who failed to develop him properly before tossing him in the fire. We had options in the offseason and now we're locked into Cedeno/Neifi at SS barring a trade. This isn't a good situation to be in, but we're in it. Go Ronny.

[nick23]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

[BigbadB]

What don't you like about Lugo?

 

48 XBH's, 57 RBI's out of the top of the order, 89 runs scored, 39 SB's, .295 AVG, .362 OBP.

 

If we get that from Cedeno, I'll be quite pleased.

 

The fact that at age 30, and after 6 seasons, he hasn't come close to that in any other season.

 

And how many of those 6 seasons were FULL seasons? Not many. Given a chance to play everyday, looks like Lugo is a pretty decent SS, IMO.

 

I'd take him over Neifi everyday and twice on Sunday. I'd take Lugo's worst season of production over Neifi.

[CUBZ99]

Then giving Cedeno, if he is performing below Neifi's level, also ensures losing? I would rather have a guy hit .280 with a ..298 OBP than a guy hit .216 with a .230 OBP. I think you are assuming that any player will a better option than Neifi. Would like to see you support that argument in some way.

 

A struggling Cedeno at least offers the chance for success in the future, which could be the very near future. Neifi only guarantees failure, because he's done it so often and for so long, we know he's not a capable starting major league baseball player. Even if Cedeno is performing below what you would expect for Neifi, you have to give him plenty of time to possibly get back over the Neifi line, which shouldn't be that hard.

 

You don't lock yourself into no produciton (Neifi) if you have the opportunity to get much greater production.

 

If Cedeno produces at a level similar to Neifi he deserves to play. It is real simple for Cedeno, he was given a great opportunity and the only thing he has to do to keep playing is produce.

 

The difference of 60 - 100 pts in batting avg. and OBP is significant. Neifi produced as an Avg. SS offensively last year and arguably above average defensively. You don't purposely downgrade just out of the mere hope that someday Cedeno is going to be better. It is possible that Cedeno is never going to be better than Neifi.

 

If Cedeno tanks, I agree with M & P the burden should fall to Hendry for not addressing the issue over the offseason, when there were alot of options available.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

If ST numbers are meaningless, Marshall is sent to the minors and not given the 4 spot in the rotation. Cedeno doesn't deserve a starting job based on one good year (mostly in the minors or the WL equivalent) anyway considering that he was an offensive black hole beforehand.

 

Cedeno is going to magically learn how to take a pitch? With our coaches? That's a huge handicap right there. Either you have good plate discipline like Murton before you come up to our big league club, or you don't develop it. Ronny's going to have a rough time this year.

 

Ronny's K/BB ratio was horrible until his stint in AAA (245 AB). It looks like he's reverted to form in the VWL and in ST.

 

Dusty doesn't throw people under the bus, even if he is an excuse maker for his team's performance.

 

If Cedeno can't earn a job based on one good year, why can Neifi earn the job by default based off of several terrible years?

 

No one has argued that Neifi deserves the starting SS job. It's a travesty that he's even in line for it b/c we placed a kid with limited offensive success in the starter's role.

[Gunned]

 

4. Neifi is terrible. The thought of him out there everyday shouldn't make Cub fan happy. The Cubs could maybe handle a black hole at the plate if they had strong enough offense from other positions. But the don't. That is Hendrys Fault. Not giving Cedeno at least @200 ABs on a consistent basis to show if he can hit will be Dusty's fault

 

If Dusty gives Cedeno 200 at bats and Ronny hits .210 in them, Dusty is going to lose his job because it's going to severely hurt the team. And he knows that.

 

The idea of Neifi starting doesn't make me happy. I think it's absurd. But I think it's equally absurd to let a rookie with a sketchy minor league history flounder away for two full months in hopes that he'll get better. A team with realistic WS aspirations shouldn't have to deal with this crap.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I'd take him over Neifi everyday and twice on Sunday. I'd take Lugo's worst season of production over Neifi.

 

Same here. I don't think he's a significant enough of an upgrade over Ronny to trade for.

[goonys evil twin]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

They led all of freaking baseball in runs scored last year. They'll be fine. They can handle a bad bat or two because the group as a whole is great.

 

And RF is not awful for Boston. I'd take a platoon of Nixon and Pena (or either one individually) over Jones in a heartbeat. And their 3B situation has a chance to work out very nicely.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

A platoon of Nixon and Pena is going to own. Hole plugged for the low low price of Arroyo. 8)

 

Alex Gonzalez is better in a down year than Neifi is in a career year. Some holes are deeper than others.

[badgercub]

Outside of Furcal, what were all these other options, aside from a trade? If Lugo was so available, why is he still in Tampa? It takes two sides to make a deal and if Hendry would have overpaid for Lugo or Tejada, like he did for Pierre we would be up in arms over that. Hopefully Ronny will pan out he has had a bad spring, but let's not panic just yet.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I'd take him over Neifi everyday and twice on Sunday. I'd take Lugo's worst season of production over Neifi.

 

Same here. I don't think he's a significant enough of an upgrade over Ronny to trade for.

 

Will you feel differently when Neifi outplays Ronny and takes his job?

[CubinNY]

 

4. Neifi is terrible. The thought of him out there everyday shouldn't make Cub fan happy. The Cubs could maybe handle a black hole at the plate if they had strong enough offense from other positions. But the don't. That is Hendrys Fault. Not giving Cedeno at least @200 ABs on a consistent basis to show if he can hit will be Dusty's fault

 

If Dusty gives Cedeno 200 at bats and Ronny hits .210 in them, Dusty is going to lose his job because it's going to severely hurt the team. And he knows that.

 

The idea of Neifi starting doesn't make me happy. I think it's absurd. But I think it's equally absurd to let a rookie with a sketchy minor league history flounder away for two full months in hopes that he'll get better. A team with realistic WS aspirations shouldn't have to deal with this crap.

 

If the Cubs are floundering it won't be becuase the number 8 hitter is sucking. If the Cubs are doing well it won't matter. IMO, they have to give the kid enough ABs to see if he can make it. We all know what the alternaive is.

Edited March 31, 2006 by CubinNY

[goonys evil twin]

No one has argued that Neifi deserves the starting SS job. It's a travesty that he's even in line for it b/c we placed a kid with limited offensive success in the starter's role.

 

No matter how you phrase it, if you justify the benching of Cedeno, you are arguing that Neifi deserves the starting SS job. A benched Cedeno means Neifi is starting. We know management screwed up the offseason. That already happened. There's nothing you can do about it now. So, in the current situation, you either advocate going with Ronny from day 1 even if it means enduring some tough stretches. Or, you advocate starting Neifi. You can't sit there and say it's fine to bench Ronny, but then say you don't want Neifi starting. It's one or the other.

[BigbadB]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

A platoon of Trot Nixon and Wily Mo Pena in RF will crush the production of any and all of the Cubs outfielders.

 

I think Lowell will be just fine at 3b in Boston.

 

Do you really want to compare the Cubs offense to Boston's?

 

Boston's top of the line up of Crisp, Loretta, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek and Pena/Nixon will be one of the best in baseball. Sea Bass can go 0 for the year and Boston will still score more than 900 runs. The Cubs can only wish for 700 runs at this juncture, especially if Neifi is starting everday.

[nick23]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

They led all of freaking baseball in runs scored last year. They'll be fine. They can handle a bad bat or two because the group as a whole is great.

 

And RF is not awful for Boston. I'd take a platoon of Nixon and Pena (or either one individually) over Jones in a heartbeat. And their 3B situation has a chance to work out very nicely.

 

Yeah that .254/.304/.492 is great from Willy Mo in right. Not to mention his 120 strikeouts to 20 walks. Corey Patterson will probably outproduce Pena this year. And Nixon's numbers are on a steady decline, plus he's injury prone.

[badgercub]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

A platoon of Trot Nixon and Wily Mo Pena in RF will crush the production of any and all of the Cubs outfielders.

 

I think Lowell will be just fine at 3b in Boston.

 

Do you really want to compare the Cubs offense to Boston's?

 

Boston's top of the line up of Crisp, Loretta, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek and Pena/Nixon will be one of the best in baseball. Sea Bass can go 0 for the year and Boston will still score more than 900 runs. The Cubs can only wish for 700 runs at this juncture, especially if Neifi is starting everday.

 

Plus, if Lowell falters they have Youkillis who they can move back to 3b.

[nick23]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

A platoon of Trot Nixon and Wily Mo Pena in RF will crush the production of any and all of the Cubs outfielders.

 

I think Lowell will be just fine at 3b in Boston.

 

Do you really want to compare the Cubs offense to Boston's?

 

Boston's top of the line up of Crisp, Loretta, Manny, Ortiz, Varitek and Pena/Nixon will be one of the best in baseball. Sea Bass can go 0 for the year and Boston will still score more than 900 runs. The Cubs can only wish for 700 runs at this juncture, especially if Neifi is starting everday.

 

Where is all the love for Pena coming from? He's a poor mans Adam Dunn without the OBP.

[CubinNY]

Nefi ,does not mean failure. Or Boston is done with Agone, houston was with Evertt, La angels with orlando c. etc.

 

The difference is those teams can afford to take on such a bad bat. The Cubs can't afford a black hole like Neifi in their already weak lineup.

 

Boston has major holes in their lineup also. They're awful at SS,3B, and RF. And they're not overly strong at first.

 

They led all of freaking baseball in runs scored last year. They'll be fine. They can handle a bad bat or two because the group as a whole is great.

 

And RF is not awful for Boston. I'd take a platoon of Nixon and Pena (or either one individually) over Jones in a heartbeat. And their 3B situation has a chance to work out very nicely.

 

Yeah that .254/.304/.492 is great from Willy Mo in right. Not to mention his 120 strikeouts to 20 walks. Corey Patterson will probably outproduce Pena this year. And Nixon's numbers are on a steady decline, plus he's injury prone.

 

Nick, check out Willie Mo's numbers against left handed pitching. They are pretty good. Also check out Nixon's # against right handed pitching, also impressive.

[goonys evil twin]

The idea of Neifi starting doesn't make me happy. I think it's absurd. But I think it's equally absurd to let a rookie with a sketchy minor league history flounder away for two full months in hopes that he'll get better. A team with realistic WS aspirations shouldn't have to deal with this crap.

 

Shouldn't? No. But that's where we are. And the only reasonable optioon is to stick with Ronny as long as possible, and yes, that could mean two months of really bad production. You simply don't choose to lock-in futility, which is Neifi, when you have a kid who could be much better (even if he currently is not).

 

 

As an aside, would people stop pretending Neifi was an average SS last year. He was only average if you consider all the hacks who got any time there (and even that is doubtful). The Cubs, as a team were 10th in the NL in OBP and OPS from the SS position. That is below average. Neifi's OBP was .010 below the team OBP from SS, while his SLG was slightly higher. Neifi, just like the Cubs, was below average for a SS. Also, last year was just one year. He's been awful for a long time, even worse than 2005. They got lucky to get a couple great weeks out of Neifi, which slightly offset his truly miserable numbers the rest of the year. Neifi's 3 year total is even worse than last year's bad numbers. You have to expect him to be even worse, because you can't assume he'll have another 3 week stretch that was so out of the ordinary from his career.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah that .254/.304/.492 is great from Willy Mo in right. Not to mention his 120 strikeouts to 20 walks. Corey Patterson will probably outproduce Pena this year. And Nixon's numbers are on a steady decline, plus he's injury prone.

 

It's called a platoon slick. No matter how you cut it, Boston's RF is much better than Jones. Their offense runs circles around the Cubs. Any comparison is absolutely absurd.

[BigbadB]

Outside of Furcal, what were all these other options, aside from a trade? If Lugo was so available, why is he still in Tampa? It takes two sides to make a deal and if Hendry would have overpaid for Lugo or Tejada, like he did for Pierre we would be up in arms over that. Hopefully Ronny will pan out he has had a bad spring, but let's not panic just yet.

 

Lugo, Renteria, Tejada are 3 off the top of my head. Lugo is one that was on the trade block and a deal never got done. Of course, I wanted the Cubs to bring back Nomar. Nomar backing up Cedeno and sticking Nomar in RF if Cedeno worked out would have worked for me. Putting Nomar at 3b if Ramirez had any lengthy downtime would have worked for me.

 

Lofton in CF at 1m instead of Pierre with Hairston platooning with him would probably be close to equal production.

 

Mitre, Nolasco and Pinto might have gotten the job done for Lugo. Hill might have needed to be in the mix, but if they wanted Hill, getting Aubrey Huff while his value was low wouldn't have been completely out of the question, IMO.

 

Hendry blew money this offseason like it was going out of style. He did not spend wisely, and if the Cubs don't do well this year, it should be both he and Dusty's jobs that it costs.

[Danny82]

Why would Nomar sign here to back up Cedeno and maybe play OF when he could start everyday in LA in an understood role as the everyday 1B? Edited March 31, 2006 by Danny82

[CubinNY]

Outside of Furcal, what were all these other options, aside from a trade? If Lugo was so available, why is he still in Tampa? It takes two sides to make a deal and if Hendry would have overpaid for Lugo or Tejada, like he did for Pierre we would be up in arms over that. Hopefully Ronny will pan out he has had a bad spring, but let's not panic just yet.

 

Lugo, Renteria, Tejada are 3 off the top of my head. Lugo is one that was on the trade block and a deal never got done. Of course, I wanted the Cubs to bring back Nomar. Nomar backing up Cedeno and sticking Nomar in RF if Cedeno worked out would have worked for me. Putting Nomar at 3b if Ramirez had any lengthy downtime would have worked for me.

 

Lofton in CF at 1m instead of Pierre with Hairston platooning with him would probably be close to equal production.

 

Mitre, Nolasco and Pinto might have gotten the job done for Lugo. Hill might have needed to be in the mix, but if they wanted Hill, getting Aubrey Huff while his value was low wouldn't have been completely out of the question, IMO.

 

Hendry blew money this offseason like it was going out of style. He did not spend wisely, and if the Cubs don't do well this year, it should be both he and Dusty's jobs that it costs.

 

You can all call me crazy if you want too but I would have gone with Nomar at SS with Ceeno backing him up.

Edited March 31, 2006 by CubinNY