Surprise, surprise: "Everything Man" over Cedeno's

[sonofsamiam]

The problem is all this conjecture about Cedeno's poor play is based on ST only. While that is both significant and worrisome, it's a small sample size, considered against his actual performance in the MLB last year combined with his excellent performances of late in every other league.

 

I really hope Cedeno comes out of the gate fast. Over time, I think he can be a near-elite shortstop. We know what we'll get from Neifi, and that's sub-mediocre offense and very good defense. Of course, the sub-mediocre offense will be especially ruinous if he's batting 2nd.

 

Also, who's to say Neifi doesn't come out of the gate batting horribly, as well? Actual history supports that likelihood more than Cedeno starting badly.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't have a problem with replacing Cedeno, I was never 100% sold on him in the first place. I have a huge problem with replacing Cedeno with Neifi. Neifi is not an average SS, he's a really bad one. The Cubs can't afford another year with Neifi production in the lineup. First off, if you give the kid the job, you have to give him more than a month to lose it. Young players struggle, and sometimes they struggle badly. However, when the alternative to that struggling young player is a player as terrible as Neifi Perez you extend it even more. Neifi might be more stable, but all he provides is stability in the failure department. Cedeno might look terrible at times, but at least he gives you the chance for improvement. Neifi won't be improving from his awful self.

[sonofsamiam]

Imagine what would have happened if Dusty were at the helm the year Sandberg started off 1-30 or whatever. Would we have ever heard from him again?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I understand the people looking for reasons to rip Baker and say he has a butt thing with Perez... But I do think that this is taking it a little far....

 

Let me see if I understand this.

1. Young player hits for a poor average in ST.

2. Young player makes more errors in ST then expected.

3. Manager says if young player don't pick it up in the field and with the bat he may be replaced.

 

Okay, were is the problem? If you look at it like this, without names it would seem to be a good policy in my opinion..... Kind of the "Perform or we will find someone that will"..

 

I just don't understand..

People are unhappy if the young guys don't get a chance to play.

People are unhappy if they get a chance, don't perform and Baker says he may replace them.

So would this be better? Leave Cedeno and his .216 avg/error every 3/4 days in to continue to play? Play Perez and his .270 avg, no errors? To me the numbers would favor Perez. Maybe I have lost my mind.

 

How can anyone be afraid because the manager wants the best playing at each position? (It sucks but Perez would seem to be the best option on the team to replace Cedeno should he fail).. I DO NOT care much for Perez myself, but I have to think his 270 average and D would be better than .200 and no D....

 

And if you go by spring numbers, Derrek Lee is riding the pine in favor of Dopirak. Neifi belongs on the bench because he has consistently proven that he is a bench player at best.

[goonys evil twin]

Lugo is an older Cedeno.

 

In what way is Lugo an older Cedeno? Lugo is a moderately priced productive SS. He's very similar to Furcal. Cedeno might one day be as productive as Lugo, but we sure as heck don't know for sure.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Cedeno really didn't deserve the starting job at 2B/SS based on one good offensive year in the minors and the VWL plus 80 ML AB.

 

He absolutely did by looking at the alternative. Cedeno struggling = Neifi.

 

How does that mean Cedeno deserves a starting job on a 100M team? Neifi's presence is irrelevant.

 

The payroll of this team should be irrelevant, too.

 

Why? It directly effects what players you can and cannot afford.

 

Whether your team payroll is 10 million or 100 million, your best players should play. Period. Not your highest-paid.

 

No one is making that argument. It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Lugo is an older Cedeno.

 

In what way is Lugo an older Cedeno? Lugo is a moderately priced productive SS. He's very similar to Furcal. Cedeno might one day be as productive as Lugo, but we sure as heck don't know for sure.

 

I think you just answered your own question -- a moderately priced productive SS. I know you're not sold on Ronny, but I most definitely am after watching him in Des Moines a few times. I think he's going to be just fine.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

 

It's a fact that players become better when you pay them more?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

A significant upgrade over Cedeno/Neifi? Just about any ML SS qualifies as a significant upgrade.

 

That's a load of crap. There are some pretty bad SS in the ML, and none in our price range are a "significant" improvement (since you brought up payroll). Lugo is an older Cedeno. Renteria is overrated and too expensive. Tejada would have cost way too much. Who else was available?

 

Alex Gonzalez

 

Price range? We were willing to pay Furcal nearly 10M/year.

[Derwood]

I hear that Baker is going to send Neifi to the on-deck circle with Cedeno every time, not to put pressure on, but to encourage him to play the best darn baseball he can.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

 

It's a fact that players become better when you pay them more?

 

How do you get that out of my statement?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

 

How do you get that out of my statement?

 

I was asking you a question. I'm still trying to figure out what it means.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Ding Dong Johnson

[badgercub]

Too much is being made of Cedeno's defense this spring. I am not concerned by the errors in AZ, the fields they are playing on are rock hard and probably account for some of the errors. I have no problem with what Baker said and I think a lot of it gets overplayed in the papers. We'll just have to wait and see. I hope Ronny comes out and lights it up to start the season, if not I have no prob with Neifi in as long as he is batting 8th.

[BigbadB]

Hendry made his bed, Dusty needs to lie in it. When they committed to go with Cedeno at SS, they need to stick to that commitment.

 

Rookies struggle. But, sitting on the bench in favor of a guy who is not major league caliber will not do a single thing to help him through his struggles.

 

Sticking with him through the tough times will help him mature and toughen him up.

 

To me, Neifi is a late inning defensive replacement, a last option PH, and a starter if for some reason Cedeno can't play.

 

A short stint in Spring Training should not change that.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

It's a simple fact that you can get better players by paying more once they reach a certain service level.

 

How do you get that out of my statement?

 

I was asking you a question. I'm still trying to figure out what it means.

 

Better players generally get more money come FA.

[TB_11]

So would this be better? Leave Cedeno and his .216 avg/error every 3/4 days in to continue to play? Play Perez and his .270 avg, no errors? To me the numbers would favor Perez. Maybe I have lost my mind.

 

If Ronny and Neifi have the offensive and defensive performances you suggest, it would be obvious that Neifi belongs in the lineup over Ronny. I think what people who are in favor of Ronny believe that his weak spring training numbers don't represent what his actual performance will be in the regular season. ~20 games in spring training don't showcase someone's performance as much as 65 games in AAA and an entire winter league.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Hendry made his bed, Dusty needs to lie in it. When they committed to go with Cedeno at SS, they need to stick to that commitment.

 

Rookies struggle. But, sitting on the bench in favor of a guy who is not major league caliber will not do a single thing to help him through his struggles.

 

Sticking with him through the tough times will help him mature and toughen him up.

 

To me, Neifi is a late inning defensive replacement, a last option PH, and a starter if for some reason Cedeno can't play.

 

A short stint in Spring Training should not change that.

 

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress.

[Derwood]

 

To me, Neifi is a defensive wizard, a first option PH, and a starter since Cedeno can't play.

 

Fixed for Dusty....

[sonofsamiam]

So would this be better? Leave Cedeno and his .216 avg/error every 3/4 days in to continue to play? Play Perez and his .270 avg, no errors? To me the numbers would favor Perez. Maybe I have lost my mind.

 

If Ronny and Neifi have the offensive and defensive performances you suggest, it would be obvious that Neifi belongs in the lineup over Ronny. I think what people who are in favor of Ronny believe that his weak spring training numbers don't represent what his actual performance will be in the regular season. ~20 games in spring training don't showcase someone's performance as much as 65 games in AAA and an entire winter league.

 

Not to mention 41 games in the MLB with an average of .300. (Yes, small sample size, but no smaller than ST.)

[Ding Dong Johnson]

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress.

 

Yes, because we've all seen exactly how similar Corey Patterson and Ronny Cedeno are.

[CUBZ99]

Hendry made his bed, Dusty needs to lie in it. When they committed to go with Cedeno at SS, they need to stick to that commitment.

 

Rookies struggle. But, sitting on the bench in favor of a guy who is not major league caliber will not do a single thing to help him through his struggles.

 

Sticking with him through the tough times will help him mature and toughen him up.

 

To me, Neifi is a late inning defensive replacement, a last option PH, and a starter if for some reason Cedeno can't play.

 

A short stint in Spring Training should not change that.

 

I think the big story is that Dusty is sticking with Cedeno to start the season in spite of his horrible spring. The Cubs don't have the luxury to sit around and hope that Cedeno is going to improve if he gets off to a bad start. Cedeno has already proved this spring training that things could get alot worse than Neifi.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

So would this be better? Leave Cedeno and his .216 avg/error every 3/4 days in to continue to play? Play Perez and his .270 avg, no errors? To me the numbers would favor Perez. Maybe I have lost my mind.

 

If Ronny and Neifi have the offensive and defensive performances you suggest, it would be obvious that Neifi belongs in the lineup over Ronny. I think what people who are in favor of Ronny believe that his weak spring training numbers don't represent what his actual performance will be in the regular season. ~20 games in spring training don't showcase someone's performance as much as 65 games in AAA and an entire winter league.

 

Not to mention 41 games in the MLB with an average of .300. (Yes, small sample size, but no smaller than ST.)

 

Dubois had an OPS of .833 in his first 80 ML AB (Cedeno has 80 ML AB). Word gets out about your holes and you have to adjust. Ronny hasn't hit that point of adjustment yet.

[biittner77]

I can, I suppose, accept Perez starting at SS for an ineffective Cedeno.

 

Someone please tell me that Perez won't bat 2nd.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

That didn't work with Corey Patterson. Giving someone playing time does not insure progress.

 

Yes, because we've all seen exactly how similar Corey Patterson and Ronny Cedeno are.

 

And? It's no given that constant playing time = ML success. How many thousands of major leaguers fit that statement historically? You have to earn your spot. Half a season in AAA, some AB down in the VWL (his K/BB ratio was horrible) which is the equivalent of maybe AA ball competition wise, and 80 ML ABs where none of the pitchers he faced knew his holes...all that success warrants a starting job in Chicago? He was an offensive joke before last season.

 

Corey had more minor league success and flat out talent than Cedeno will ever have.

Edited March 31, 2006 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[CubinNY]

I really want Ronny to succeed, but I'd rather have them win.

 

As opposed to the people who think Neifi should be nothing more than a back up. We'd rather have Cedeno, even if it means the cubs lose...not.

 

This is Dubios all over again. I guess we'll see how he responds to the pressure. An 0-for could mean his job. Dusty doesn't have to say anything. It is kind of an unwritten rule, you have to perform if you are young or you will be gone. Although, veterans with long but mediocre track records get the benifit of the doubt. It's not just Dusty who does this, it is most of baseball.