Rumor - Murton for Soriano?

[NorthsideAvenger]

Look I am going to make it simple.....I don't need to know a players ISOP, or any of those other "topic starting" stats. All I care about...is (Drum roll)....WINS AND LOSSES. Just like at the Combine, football is not play in a t-shirt and shorts....baseball isn't played throught stats. Yes....stats can be impressive, but let's not OVERRATED stats, people. There is NO direct link froma player's stats into a team's win and losses, regardless of what formula you used in your argument. Baseball, like football is a TEAM sport. While ONE player can carry the load for awhile, the fact is...you still need 25 guys working together as a unit to be successful (thanks alot Scott Bakula for putting THAT thought in my head). IMO, it doesn't matter if a player has an impressive line, it the team doesn't win....those stats become meaningless.

 

Which brings me to Matt Murton. I HONESTLY do believe that Murton will hit the 30 hrs in a season a couple of times in his career. Now do I think he will do in 2006...Based on what I've seen so far of Murton....I can't say HE WON'T do it, but I think ultimately his line will.... .287/.361/.454/.815.

[Diffusion]

Edited. Edited February 24, 2006 by Diffusion

[Lefty]

His on base percentage doesn't matter when hes putting up those power numbers. You guys care way to much about OBP and stuff like that isnt't a big part of a power number hitters part on a team. He also can run and is a 30/30 guy which Nefi can't do. Believe me he will have a much better and productive year this year than Murton.

 

You are so wrong. Getting on base is essential to scoring runs. Why don't you check Soriano's road stats as well.

 

And the fact that Murton makes $9 million less than Soriano does matter. RBIs are not a real stat. So Soriano at 30 HRs and a .250 average and no walks makes him worse than Burnitz offensively and terrrible defensively. Soriano would be a disaster. Don't be bamboozled by meaningless numbers.

[Lefty]

Look I am going to make it simple.....I don't need to know a players ISOP, or any of those other "topic starting" stats. All I care about...is (Drum roll)....WINS AND LOSSES. Just like at the Combine, football is not play in a t-shirt and shorts....baseball isn't played throught stats. Yes....stats can be impressive, but let's not OVERRATED stats, people. There is NO direct link froma player's stats into a team's win and losses, regardless of what formula you used in your argument. Baseball, like football is a TEAM sport. While ONE player can carry the load for awhile, the fact is...you still need 25 guys working together as a unit to be successful (thanks alot Scott Bakula for putting THAT thought in my head). IMO, it doesn't matter if a player has an impressive line, it the team doesn't win....those stats become meaningless.

 

 

But how can you win if everybody has a lousy stat line? You know that's not possible right? You know if you can't get on base, slug, pitch or field, you can't win, right? Those things show up in the stats.

 

Lee's great year was rendered meaningless from a win/loss perspective because the rest of the team stunk. But that doesn't mean we might as well have J.T. Snow.

[TheDude]

Trading Murton for Soriano is a terrible idea.

 

On the other hand, I disagree with people's attempt to devalue Soriano based upon sabre-happy stats. You can win the argument against some fans, but it won't win the argument against the folks that matter - GMs. GMs are not going to devalue Soriano right now. So the notion that Soriano is a "bad contract" is a grassroots fans-in-love-with-Beane idea that isn't supported by the GMs in the league.

 

Soriano can't be had for a bad contract and low-level prospects. (Note I don't want Soriano, just disputing prior claims).

[rjchapma]

Plain and simple. Soriano and hairston in LF is better than Murton in LF and walker. We need the big power for number 5 hole. Jones is no where near Soriano in that position. Unless you kind find a better 5 hitter than Soriano for Murton I make that deal.

[goonys evil twin]

Soriano is exactly the type of hitter this team needs less of.

[BigbadB]

Plain and simple. Soriano and hairston in LF is better than Murton in LF and walker. We need the big power for number 5 hole. Jones is no where near Soriano in that position. Unless you kind find a better 5 hitter than Soriano for Murton I make that deal.

 

Resigning Nomar and sticking him in RF would have been cheaper and better for this team than Soriano or Jones, IMO. There's your 5 hole hitter.

[Lefty]

Plain and simple. Soriano and hairston in LF is better than Murton in LF and walker. We need the big power for number 5 hole. Jones is no where near Soriano in that position. Unless you kind find a better 5 hitter than Soriano for Murton I make that deal.

 

I agree with you that Jones is terrible, and should be batting 7th not 5th. But Walker and Murton (at $3 million) will outproduce Hairston and Soriano (at $12 million) as well.

[noisesquared]

Trading Murton for Soriano is a terrible idea.

 

On the other hand, I disagree with people's attempt to devalue Soriano based upon sabre-happy stats. You can win the argument against some fans, but it won't win the argument against the folks that matter - GMs. GMs are not going to devalue Soriano right now. So the notion that Soriano is a "bad contract" is a grassroots fans-in-love-with-Beane idea that isn't supported by the GMs in the league.

 

Soriano can't be had for a bad contract and low-level prospects. (Note I don't want Soriano, just disputing prior claims).

 

I think there are several issues with Soriano working against him:

- $10mil contract - this'll be tough for most teams to take on entering spring training without giving up a contract in return

- Soriano's claim that he'll return to the AL next year, making him a rent-a-player to half the league

- Soriano's refusal to play anywhere but 2B, which severely narrows the market

 

So what is a potential 1 year, $10mil 2B rental worth in trade? Probably a bad contract and some low-level prospects, regardless of any statistical evaluation.

[sethuel1]

Plain and simple. Soriano and hairston in LF is better than Murton in LF and walker.

 

There is no way this is true, unless either Walker or Murton becomes an amputee.

[CubfaninCA]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

It means no pickup at the trade deadline and no possibility of discovering our weakness and strengthening it for the playoffs (ideally).

[sethuel1]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

What kind of question is this? there's a budget. Paying more in contracts means we're closer to maxing out that budget (or, maybe, we're already close enough that we can't go that much higher anyway).

 

That's like saying "I make $50k a year, what difference does it make if I eat at McDonalds each day or Rosebud each day for this entire month, since the total costs will each be a small percentage of my income for the year."

[CubfaninCA]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

What kind of question is this? there's a budget. Paying more in contracts means we're closer to maxing out that budget (or, maybe, we're already close enough that we can't go that much higher anyway).

 

That's like saying "I make $50k a year, what difference does it make if I eat at McDonalds each day or Rosebud each day for this entire month, since the total costs will each be a small percentage of my income for the year."

 

"Maxing out" for who? Matt Lawton was the best guy available last trade deadline. Last I saw, the Cubs are at $96 million. They can afford to go to $105.

[CubfaninCA]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

It means no pickup at the trade deadline and no possibility of discovering our weakness and strengthening it for the playoffs (ideally).

 

The weaknesses are obvious (Neifi, Jones & Dusty). Guys like Tejada & Abreu will cost half the farm.

[sethuel1]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

What kind of question is this? there's a budget. Paying more in contracts means we're closer to maxing out that budget (or, maybe, we're already close enough that we can't go that much higher anyway).

 

That's like saying "I make $50k a year, what difference does it make if I eat at McDonalds each day or Rosebud each day for this entire month, since the total costs will each be a small percentage of my income for the year."

 

"Maxing out" for who? Matt Lawton was the best guy available last trade deadline. Last I saw, the Cubs are at $96 million. They can afford to go to $105.

 

So you suggest paying ~8% of the probable budget on a marginal upgrade (or downgrade, if you're not memerized by Soriano's mythical 30/30 numbers) simply because we have the cash and thereby tying our hands for later based on the fact that last year, one of the worst years for free agency and trading deadline acquisitions in recent history, our trade didn't pan out?

[CubfaninCA]

His on base percentage doesn't matter when hes putting up those power numbers. You guys care way to much about OBP and stuff like that isnt't a big part of a power number hitters part on a team. He also can run and is a 30/30 guy which Nefi can't do. Believe me he will have a much better and productive year this year than Murton.

 

You are so wrong. Getting on base is essential to scoring runs. Why don't you check Soriano's road stats as well.

 

And the fact that Murton makes $9 million less than Soriano does matter. RBIs are not a real stat. So Soriano at 30 HRs and a .250 average and no walks makes him worse than Burnitz offensively and terrrible defensively. Soriano would be a disaster. Don't be bamboozled by meaningless numbers.

 

How was Texas 15th in obp and 3rd in runs??

 

The Cubs big problem last year was underutlizing their 3 & 4 hitters. The 1, 2 & 5 hitters were awful.

 

Pierre, Hairston & Soriano >>>>>>>>> Patterson, Neifi & Burnitz

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Pierre, Hairston & Soriano >>>>>>>>> Patterson, Neifi & Burnitz

 

CF, 2B/Util, 2B ---- CF, SS/Util, RF

 

Not a very fair comparison.

[Diffusion]

His on base percentage doesn't matter when hes putting up those power numbers. You guys care way to much about OBP and stuff like that isnt't a big part of a power number hitters part on a team. He also can run and is a 30/30 guy which Nefi can't do. Believe me he will have a much better and productive year this year than Murton.

 

You are so wrong. Getting on base is essential to scoring runs. Why don't you check Soriano's road stats as well.

 

And the fact that Murton makes $9 million less than Soriano does matter. RBIs are not a real stat. So Soriano at 30 HRs and a .250 average and no walks makes him worse than Burnitz offensively and terrrible defensively. Soriano would be a disaster. Don't be bamboozled by meaningless numbers.

 

How was Texas 15th in obp and 3rd in runs??

 

I don't know, maybe, just maybe, it was because they led the world in slugging percentage, the second of the two big stats, and maybe playing in a really cosy hitter's park also helped, and maybe you're just not going to get a completely perfect correlation when the sample size is just one year.

[CubfaninCA]

Why does $8 million more matter?? (Walker will probably be dealt if this deal happens so deduct $2 mil). The Cubs don't play in Oakland or Cincinati.

 

What kind of question is this? there's a budget. Paying more in contracts means we're closer to maxing out that budget (or, maybe, we're already close enough that we can't go that much higher anyway).

 

That's like saying "I make $50k a year, what difference does it make if I eat at McDonalds each day or Rosebud each day for this entire month, since the total costs will each be a small percentage of my income for the year."

 

"Maxing out" for who? Matt Lawton was the best guy available last trade deadline. Last I saw, the Cubs are at $96 million. They can afford to go to $105.

 

So you suggest paying ~8% of the probable budget on a marginal upgrade (or downgrade, if you're not memerized by Soriano's mythical 30/30 numbers) simply because we have the cash and thereby tying our hands for later based on the fact that last year, one of the worst years for free agency and trading deadline acquisitions in recent history, our trade didn't pan out?

 

Just saying it's not an awful idea to put 8% of the budget into a top 30-40 slugging guy. It's reasonable.

[jtownie]

His on base percentage doesn't matter when hes putting up those power numbers. You guys care way to much about OBP and stuff like that isnt't a big part of a power number hitters part on a team. He also can run and is a 30/30 guy which Nefi can't do. Believe me he will have a much better and productive year this year than Murton.

 

You are so wrong. Getting on base is essential to scoring runs. Why don't you check Soriano's road stats as well.

 

And the fact that Murton makes $9 million less than Soriano does matter. RBIs are not a real stat. So Soriano at 30 HRs and a .250 average and no walks makes him worse than Burnitz offensively and terrrible defensively. Soriano would be a disaster. Don't be bamboozled by meaningless numbers.

 

How was Texas 15th in obp and 3rd in runs??

 

I don't know, maybe, just maybe, it was because they led the world in slugging percentage, the second of the two big stats, and maybe playing in a really cosy hitter's park also helped, and maybe you're just not going to get a completely perfect correlation when the sample size is just one year.

 

it might also be a good idea to figure out how many runs were scored at home compared to on the road.

[CubfaninCA]

Pierre, Hairston & Soriano >>>>>>>>> Patterson, Neifi & Burnitz

 

CF, 2B/Util, 2B ---- CF, SS/Util, RF

 

Not a very fair comparison.

 

Expound..

 

Those 3 guys had about 1500 or so at-bats in the 1,2 & 5 spots.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

it might also be a good idea to figure out how many runs were scored at home compared to on the road.

 

Runs at home - 469 (278/341/509/850)

Runs away - 396 (258/318/430/747)

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Pierre, Hairston & Soriano >>>>>>>>> Patterson, Neifi & Burnitz

 

CF, 2B/Util, 2B ---- CF, SS/Util, RF

 

Not a very fair comparison.

 

Expound..

 

Those 3 guys had about 1500 or so at-bats in the 1,2 & 5 spots.

 

Simply plugging hypothetical players in spots in the lineup and saying they're better for the team is unfair. Sure, Hairston is a better #2 option than Neifi, but can Jerry play SS? Soriano is a better #5 hitter than Burny, but can or will he play RF? If Sori is at 2B, where's Hairston?