Keener98

Its his entire season as a whole, and everything that has encompassed it. He has brought alot of this on himself and you know that. Declaring you are going to win a Cy Young award and then crapping the bed the 1st 2 months of the season. Then getting into a fight with his own teammate. Then using his contract as an excuse as to why hes pitching bad, and then sign the contract and continue to pitch bad. So what, he's not allowed to have a down season. Are you turning into Dan Duquette on us? (I doubt you even get that reference) Pitchers have down years. Pitchers have down months. Zambrano is human. Well most staff aces dont have down years like hes had, after signing a big ass contract. Incorrect once again. Zambrano never had a contract until August. His struggles earlier in the season have little to do with the contract. Most staff aces DO have down years like the one he's had. You didn't get the reference. No I didnt get the reference. But Z himself said the contract situation was bothering him so it had some effect, unless that was just one of Z's excuses. I cant think of many aces who in the beginning of the prime of their career have struggled and had the kind of down year like Z, Id say its not common.

So we are villifying him by wanting him to stop sucking and start pitching like the ace he is? Ya sounds like we are real irrational. you've been villifying him from your very first post. And no one said anything about the fact that wanting him to stop sucking is a bad thing. But that yesterday was beyond that. We are going to have to agree to disagree because you arent going to change my mind that there was nothing wrong with what took place yesterday from the fans. I was just about to say the same thing, because I think yesterday was bushleague and classless. So was his performence... hahahahaha. that's a good one. yea z's all out hustle and zeal and passion for which he plays the game is the complete opposite of bushleague and classless. But I know you need to feel justification for the way he was treated by supposed fans yesterday. I don't care about hustle, Zeal, and Passion. I care about results, and the man isn't getting it done when we need him most. It's really that simple. And this simple fact as you put it doesn't mean jack when it comes to whether or not he will produce over the higher leverage month of september Do you put any stock into the fact that his stats over the course of his career in the month of Sept arent very good? Hes had 2 very good Septembers, but only 1 of those were when we were in a pennant race(2004) Other than that his stats in Sept have been really bad. Im asking an honest question here, is that too small a sample, or do you think some stock should be put into it?

Holy jesus the irony is frightening. We arent even talking in the same context here, but whatever. I understand Z has been good for us in the past, and I also understand Z will be good for us in the future. However that still doesnt mean hes free of criticism when he does suck like he has this year.

Its his entire season as a whole, and everything that has encompassed it. He has brought alot of this on himself and you know that. Declaring you are going to win a Cy Young award and then crapping the bed the 1st 2 months of the season. Then getting into a fight with his own teammate. Then using his contract as an excuse as to why hes pitching bad, and then sign the contract and continue to pitch bad. So what, he's not allowed to have a down season. Are you turning into Dan Duquette on us? (I doubt you even get that reference) Pitchers have down years. Pitchers have down months. Zambrano is human. Well most staff aces dont have down years like hes had, after signing a big ass contract.

So we are villifying him by wanting him to stop sucking and start pitching like the ace he is? Ya sounds like we are real irrational. you've been villifying him from your very first post. And no one said anything about the fact that wanting him to stop sucking is a bad thing. But that yesterday was beyond that. We are going to have to agree to disagree because you arent going to change my mind that there was nothing wrong with what took place yesterday from the fans. I was just about to say the same thing, because I think yesterday was bushleague and classless. So was his performence... hahahahaha. that's a good one. yea z's all out hustle and zeal and passion for which he plays the game is the complete opposite of bushleague and classless. But I know you need to feel justification for the way he was treated by supposed fans yesterday. I don't care about hustle, Zeal, and Passion. I care about results, and the man isn't getting it done when we need him most. It's really that simple. As someone who has played competitive sports through college, there are a few things players directly control. You can work hard, you can want it badly, you can practice and dedicate yourself to a trade, but when you hit the field, you can't control what opponents do. I expect the best effort and committment to winning from my players. Seomteimes you just don't have good stuff and there isn't anything you can do it about. It is these situations in which I feel players need support not villification.l But Z had good stuff yesterday until his base running blunder and he got pissed and took it out to the field and started off by throwing 6 straight balls.

Its his entire season as a whole, and everything that has encompassed it. He has brought alot of this on himself and you know that. Declaring you are going to win a Cy Young award and then crapping the bed the 1st 2 months of the season. Then getting into a fight with his own teammate. Then using his contract as an excuse as to why hes pitching bad, and then sign the contract and continue to pitch bad.

Maybe for full seasons but his monthly stats are just all over the place, a lot like Zito. Zambrano generally has 2-3 completely dominant best pitcher in baseball type months a year mixed with some pretty average to downright bad months. ERA by month for the past 3 years... 4.31 2.40 5.79 2.11 1.74 4.19 5.35 1.90 1.96 4.15 3.63 4.03 5.77 4.72 2.53 1.38 7.06 Now compare to someone more consistent like Oswalt 3.25 3.20 1.40 2.03 5.81 2.93 2.76 3.49 3.72 3.09 3.38 1.85 3.43 3.29 3.55 4.41 1.14 I can do that too. Jake Peavy I Split G GS GF W L S CG SHO IP ERA H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP +-+------------+---+--+--+--+--+--+--+---+-----+------+---+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+ April/Mar. 5 5 0 1 3 0 0 0 31.1 5.17 33 18 18 4 7 4 24 1 May 6 6 0 3 2 0 0 0 38 3.32 31 14 14 6 8 1 48 1 June 5 5 0 0 3 0 1 0 30.2 5.28 32 18 18 4 8 1 37 1 July 4 4 0 1 2 0 0 0 24 7.12 29 19 19 3 13 1 27 1 August 6 6 0 2 3 0 0 0 37.2 2.87 30 13 12 3 14 3 38 0 Sept./Oct. 6 6 0 4 1 0 1 0 40.2 2.43 32 11 11 3 12 1 41 2 You used this years stats whereas he used 3 year stats to show his point. I think your point would be made if Peavys 3 year stats were like those that you posted but if not, what really is your point of posting just 1 years worth of stats?

hahahaha maybe a .000000000000001 chance. I doubt Lou is going to give the rook a start since this is Sept. We have to go with veterans who have been there and know how to play baseball in Sept ........

So we are villifying him by wanting him to stop sucking and start pitching like the ace he is? Ya sounds like we are real irrational. you've been villifying him from your very first post. And no one said anything about the fact that wanting him to stop sucking is a bad thing. But that yesterday was beyond that. We are going to have to agree to disagree because you arent going to change my mind that there was nothing wrong with what took place yesterday from the fans. Villifying? Have we really reached a point that every negative comment is going to be construed as villifying? Yea I know Im guessing you meant to quote Badger right? I really dont get the whole villafying crap but oh well.

I'm almost positive that Carpenter would have the sense not to make similar comments that Zambrano made. I think the biggest problems from all of this, is that Zambrano has put himself into a position with the fans where he has zero margin for error. Yup once again Z holds his own cards. Go out pitch like we all know he can, and all will be forgotten, but if he keeps talking and pitching like crap, its only going to go downhill fast from here.

So we are villifying him by wanting him to stop sucking and start pitching like the ace he is? Ya sounds like we are real irrational. you've been villifying him from your very first post. And no one said anything about the fact that wanting him to stop sucking is a bad thing. But that yesterday was beyond that. We are going to have to agree to disagree because you arent going to change my mind that there was nothing wrong with what took place yesterday from the fans.

Bad Month? Care to change that? Jesus had had FOUR YEARS of being good to great. he's had a month and half of being bad lately. Leave it to a Cards fan to actually bring perspective in. April=1 May=2 August =3 and 1 start in Sept. You have a new way of doing math? lol. you're something else. ERA + of 110 (16 starts) 136 (32 starts) 165 (31 starts) 131 (33 starts) 136 (33 starts) 111 (28 starts) He's built up EQUITY with me, and I believe he should have with everyone. Even with a bad year. What have you done for me lately, in the heat of a pennant race? Zambrano played a dumb game yesterday all around, and that is why he was boo'd also. If Z is too immature to understand this, then I dont know what to tell him, but I hope he uses this the same way he used the Barret thing.

So we are villifying him by wanting him to stop sucking and start pitching like the ace he is? Ya sounds like we are real irrational.

No. He could have a bad year and you still shouldn't write him off. No one is writing him off. The fans didn't boo him when he blew threw the stop sign. The fans didn't boo when he walked the first hitter on 4 pitches. The fans didn't boo that inning. They booed when he continued to walk hitters, including one guy he had down 0-2, and then gave up run scoring hits to a .200 hitting #8 hitter and then the pitcher. Cub fans watched Juan Pierre go a whole season in 2006 hardly ever drawing a walk, and knowing you can throw him the meatiest fastball ever and he probably wouldn't hit it past the 2nd baseman, but Carlos walks him. This team is better than they have been playing. Fans are excited right now sitting in first place with less than a month to play, and emotions are at an all time high. They expect a little bit more from their staff ace and there really is nothing wrong with showing some negative emotion for the collective crap he has strung together. Excellently put BBB. By the way you going to the Bears game Sunday?

Yea I know its just all us ignorant Cub fans. If Carpenter had pitched like this down the stretch immediatly after becoming the highest paid pitcher in baseball on an average basis, and then made an ignorant comment about the fans, the greatest fans in baseball would just keep loving away, and not boo or say a word. Yea thats it..... I'd bet my bank account Cards fans wouldn't boo Carpenter after 5 bad starts. 5 bad starts? He has the worst ERA of any starter on this team. Its been alot more than just 5 bad starts.

Bad Month? Care to change that? Jesus had had FOUR YEARS of being good to great. he's had a month and half of being bad lately. Leave it to a Cards fan to actually bring perspective in. April=1 May=2 August =3 and 1 start in Sept. You have a new way of doing math?

No. He could have a bad year and you still shouldn't write him off. Who here is writing him off? I know I have said it numerous times that the odds state he will turn it around.

Yea I know its just all us ignorant Cub fans. If Carpenter had pitched like this down the stretch immediatly after becoming the highest paid pitcher in baseball on an average basis, and then made an ignorant comment about the fans, the greatest fans in baseball would just keep loving away, and not boo or say a word. Yea thats it.....

I was in favor of the trade for Monroe, but what exactly have you seen from Monroe (during his time with the Cubs) that you like? Yea not sure what there really is to like so far about the 4 for 20 since becoming a Cub. Im not knocking him as I think he should be starting vs lefties in CF, but so far he hasnt done anything.

What about our other pitchers? Should Lee and Ramirez get booed for having no power this year? Anytime a player has a bad run they should get booed? Its not just about the bad pitching the last month. Its everything else taken into as a whole. The fans of Chicago want to win so badly, and they know this year the team has a chance at the playoffs. Yesterday was a big game for us, as the fans could see Stl losing and Milw losing, and then Z comes out and craps the bed. The fans were upset just like Z was upset with Barret. However its ok for Z to show his emotion towards Barret, but not for the fans to show their emotion towards big Z. That is hipocracy at its finest plain and simple. That's the thing though-it wasn't fine for Z to show his emotion towards Barrett, and he admitted that and apologized for it. If you are going to compare the two situations, then you're saying that the booing was unjustified. No thats the thing CCP, Z should know better than anybody how even if you are teammates, like you are saying he thinks the fans are, that in the heat of the battle things happen. Z had 2 hours to calm down before his press conference and still came out with that emotion, while the fans showed theirs immediatly while things were happening. Oh definitely, and I doubt Z would have brought it up by himself. How is he supposed to respond to the questions by the media though? I guess maybe he should have responded like you said, that he didn't feel it was the right thing for the fans to do but he can understand why they did that in the heat of the game. Exactly Kip Wells was bood big time yesterday as well and said he expected it. Jacque Jones handled the boo'ing perfectly as well. There were numerous things Z could have done but didnt, even after having 2 hours to think about what he was going to say. Jock also hates the fans and won't even acknowledge their cheering now. Because it's hypocritical. I honestly could give a rats ass if Z hates the fans and wont acknowledge us as long as he goes out there keeps his mouth shut and pitches this team into the playoffs.

What about our other pitchers? Should Lee and Ramirez get booed for having no power this year? Anytime a player has a bad run they should get booed? Its not just about the bad pitching the last month. Its everything else taken into as a whole. The fans of Chicago want to win so badly, and they know this year the team has a chance at the playoffs. Yesterday was a big game for us, as the fans could see Stl losing and Milw losing, and then Z comes out and craps the bed. The fans were upset just like Z was upset with Barret. However its ok for Z to show his emotion towards Barret, but not for the fans to show their emotion towards big Z. That is hipocracy at its finest plain and simple. That's the thing though-it wasn't fine for Z to show his emotion towards Barrett, and he admitted that and apologized for it. If you are going to compare the two situations, then you're saying that the booing was unjustified. No thats the thing CCP, Z should know better than anybody how even if you are teammates, like you are saying he thinks the fans are, that in the heat of the battle things happen. Z had 2 hours to calm down before his press conference and still came out with that emotion, while the fans showed theirs immediatly while things were happening. Oh definitely, and I doubt Z would have brought it up by himself. How is he supposed to respond to the questions by the media though? I guess maybe he should have responded like you said, that he didn't feel it was the right thing for the fans to do but he can understand why they did that in the heat of the game. Exactly Kip Wells was bood big time yesterday as well and said he expected it. Jacque Jones handled the boo'ing perfectly as well. There were numerous things Z could have done but didnt, even after having 2 hours to think about what he was going to say.

What about our other pitchers? Should Lee and Ramirez get booed for having no power this year? Anytime a player has a bad run they should get booed? You can't compare other pitchers to Z. He's paid close to 100 million dollars to win games like yesterday. He's been flat out our worse pitcher down the stretch. And like I said he's built up equity. This isn't some scrub struggling. I just don't see what the point of booing a guy whose arguably your best pitcher, when you know he's gonna take it personally, and it may ruin the rest of his time here in Chicago. I say god bless Z for actually caring. no one is gonna convince me otherwise. I subscribe to the philosophy that the only reason a player should get booed is because they slack, they don't give effort, they are a bad person (John Rocker, wife beaters, etc.). Z hasnt been the best pitcher this year. and Z is the one who holds the cards as to how this plays out. Z shuts up and pitches well, then all will be forgiven by the fans, but if he keeps on talking without producing, then yes hes going to make it hell on himself here.

What about our other pitchers? Should Lee and Ramirez get booed for having no power this year? Anytime a player has a bad run they should get booed? Its not just about the bad pitching the last month. Its everything else taken into as a whole. The fans of Chicago want to win so badly, and they know this year the team has a chance at the playoffs. Yesterday was a big game for us, as the fans could see Stl losing and Milw losing, and then Z comes out and craps the bed. The fans were upset just like Z was upset with Barret. However its ok for Z to show his emotion towards Barret, but not for the fans to show their emotion towards big Z. That is hipocracy at its finest plain and simple. That's the thing though-it wasn't fine for Z to show his emotion towards Barrett, and he admitted that and apologized for it. If you are going to compare the two situations, then you're saying that the booing was unjustified. No thats the thing CCP, Z should know better than anybody how even if you are teammates, like you are saying he thinks the fans are, that in the heat of the battle things happen. Z had 2 hours to calm down before his press conference and still came out with that emotion, while the fans showed theirs immediatly while things were happening, just like he did towards Barret.

Zambrano can let his emotions get the better of him and deck Michael Barrett, but fans are supposed to sit on their hands the entire game and show zero emotion. Zambrano is the prince of emotion, in line to succeed Ron Santo as king. Cardinal fans were dead wrong to boo any part of their 11 run blowout yesterday, too. If only the fans would have cheered louder at each fundamental blow up, the Cardinal players would have seized the moment and scored 12 runs to come back and win the game. It doesn't work that way. Fans pay money to show some emotion at the game. They all prefer to cheer the whole game. And they don't boo when someone boots a ground ball. Boot 4 or 5 ground balls and yeah, you're going to hear displeasure. It's the nature of the beast. Well when you do it to an emotional guy like Zambrano (which incidentally is what makes him both great and awful), who is sensitive, it's only natural he's confused about the intent of fans. If i was cheered one day, had 4 years of being one of the best players on the team, and then I was booed because of one up or down year, I'd think fans were selfish too. And I'd be right. No you wouldnt be. Z is emotional, and right now in the heat of the pennant race when Z is needed more than ever hes pitching like Kip Wells, he would be a fool to think the fans arent going to show their emotion just like they would with him if he was pitching great. Z cant have it both ways. Its either ok to be emotional during the heat of a game, or its not. Its a 2 way street here. Well it's obvious that Z cares. It's obvious he was hurt yesterday. Not all players are thick skinned. If you want the Cubs to win, we NEED Z. Crushing his spirit when we need him the most won't be productive. But go ahead and think your right to boo is principled. It's as hypocritical as it gets, so enjoy it. Id say thats exactly what hes done to the Cubs fans since the ASB. We all know Z cares, but for him to think its ok for him to be emotional during a game, but the fans arent allowed to is the biggest hypocricy there is in all of this. From the quotes, I think Z thinks of the fans as one of his teammates. If he sees it that way, I can see why he's upset-if you actually were in the dugout, the last thing you would do when Z returned to the dugout would be to walk up to him and say "Boy, that was some really bad pitching today". If you actually were there, you'd try to encourage him and tell him he'd get them next time, and he feels like the fans are not supporting him through the down times. Z is emotional, but he typically is emotional in his support for his team and the fans (the Barrett incident aside, which he apologized for). I can understand why Z is upset, but I don't think the fans did anything wrong either. It's just a matter of different perspectives. I get what you are saying CCP, however we have seen Z turn on one of his teammates in the dugout, and openly show up others in the past after they made an error. Its a 2 way street

What about our other pitchers? Should Lee and Ramirez get booed for having no power this year? Anytime a player has a bad run they should get booed? Its not just about the bad pitching the last month. Its everything else taken into as a whole. The fans of Chicago want to win so badly, and they know this year the team has a chance at the playoffs. Yesterday was a big game for us, as the fans could see Stl losing and Milw losing, and then Z comes out and craps the bed. The fans were upset just like Z was upset with Barret. However its ok for Z to show his emotion towards Barret, but not for the fans to show their emotion towards big Z. That is hipocracy at its finest plain and simple.