CaliforniaRaisin

Think about it. A catcher drops a low called strike 3 and the batter doesn't swing. How are the players to know it was strike 3? Is it the right hand straight out or does an ump yell strike 3 but doesn't pump the batter out? If the plate ump simply yelled "live runner" it would be clear what happened. It definately would help the catcher since he can't see him. The plate ump should definitely be required to use verbal signals for the catcher's benefit. The other umps can use visual signs. True. And...it's up to the other players to be aware to help the catcher with this. Given that all the players were running off the field, and indicated Eddings' fist pump when AJP started running, all the players were aware of what was going on. I saw Erstad standing at first when AJP got there. http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2005-10/19942320.jpg Look at the video, the second AJP starts running, Erstad, Kennedy and Escobar are shown in the wider view and all three make gestures similar to Eddings' fist pump or point to Eddings.

Think about it. A catcher drops a low called strike 3 and the batter doesn't swing. How are the players to know it was strike 3? Is it the right hand straight out or does an ump yell strike 3 but doesn't pump the batter out? If the plate ump simply yelled "live runner" it would be clear what happened. It definately would help the catcher since he can't see him. The plate ump should definitely be required to use verbal signals for the catcher's benefit. The other umps can use visual signs. True. And...it's up to the other players to be aware to help the catcher with this. Given that all the players were running off the field, and indicated Eddings' fist pump when AJP started running, all the players were aware of what was going on.

Isn't John Wayne/Santa Ana closer? Most teams fly in to Ontario and fly out of John Wayne. Don't ask me why. John Wayne is much closer. I also wouldn't fancy driving from Ontario to Anaheim - the 91 is evil and always jam packed with traffic.

Thanks! It was Slugger_16's idea.

I still haven't heard from Paul yet about the verbal out call. You're going to have to wait for an interview from him today or tomorrow. For some reason, the reporters never asked him what he heard the Eddings say

"It was a swing, our catcher caught it, Doug Eddings called him out, and somewhere along the line because the guy ran to first base, he altered the call. He called him out, and that's what's disappointing. When an umpire calls a guy out and you're the catcher -- and I've caught my share of them -- he's out. He didn't call 'swing,' he rang him up with his fist and said, 'You're out.' " - Mike Scioscia

This was printed earlier in this thread. In addition, BBTN did a video recap of every incident like the one in the bottom of the 9th. He clearly did the same movement for every swinging strike that was not dropped. In regards to rules, there is nothing I can find that says that an umpire has to say a ruling. In regards to the delayed call, here's what MLB tells the umpires under rule 9.05: Then my question is what does he do to tell the difference between strike 3 and you're out? He put his hand out to say it was not a foul ball but what would he do to say it's a strike but not an out? By the way, this will be a great lesson for my kids! NOT pump his first, which is what he did in 3 examples that I showed in my last post.

Regardless of whether or not he saw the signal he was called out by the umpire. If the Angels actually heard "You're out" then they have a 100% legit beef. If they assumed they heard it then we have a problem. I'm curious on what Paul heard. Doesn't the fact the there was the fist pump, signaling him out, make the beef legit? I said 100%. The Angels have a very valid arguement I have never denied that. Also, for anyone that taped the game I think it would matter what the ump did the whole game to determine his pattern for K's.

Regardless of whether or not he saw the signal he was called out by the umpire. If the Angels actually heard "You're out" then they have a 100% legit beef. If they assumed they heard it then we have a problem. I'm curious on what Paul heard. Doesn't the fact the there was the fist pump, signaling him out, make the beef legit? Yes, it should. To everyone besides the umps.

Indecision yes, but the fact remains the same that he DID call him out. I think he called it a strike but did not say out loud he was out. But he motioned with his fist that he was out. Eddings said nothing, because he wanted to see what the players would do...way to control the field of play, ump. :roll: I agree that is the wrong thing to do. It also proves my point that there was a possibility of it not being an out and AJP took advantage while Paul assumed the other. Also, that explaination doesn't make sense because half of the players involved believed it to be an out so since Paul didn't throw the ball to first and rolled the ball to the mound I dont see how that explaination can be right. There is no possibility that AJP wasn't out. Eddings fist took care of any doubts on that. Doesn't an ump yell you're out? Hrm, apparently he did yell him out: "I was right there, how many feet away. I didn't see if the ball hit the dirt, but I saw the umpire point and call him out. That's all I needed to see." - Angels reliever Kelvim Escobar EDIT: That doesn't necessarily mean Eddings yelled.

Indecision yes, but the fact remains the same that he DID call him out. I think he called it a strike but did not say out loud he was out. But he motioned with his fist that he was out. Eddings said nothing, because he wanted to see what the players would do...way to control the field of play, ump. :roll: I agree that is the wrong thing to do. It also proves my point that there was a possibility of it not being an out and AJP took advantage while Paul assumed the other. Also, that explaination doesn't make sense because half of the players involved believed it to be an out so since Paul didn't throw the ball to first and rolled the ball to the mound I dont see how that explaination can be right. There is no possibility that AJP wasn't out. Eddings fist took care of any doubts on that.

:-s Yes. The umps all have Eddings back. :roll: Did Paul hear him say that AJP was out? If so then the ump is lying but if he didn't then there is the gray area. No. The ump said NOTHING. I think Paul was also affected by seeing Erstad, Kennedy, Cabrerra and Figgins running to the dugout and they saw Eddings' fist signal the out.

Indecision yes, but the fact remains the same that he DID call him out. I think he called it a strike but did not say out loud he was out. But he motioned with his fist that he was out. Eddings said nothing, because he wanted to see what the players would do...way to control the field of play, ump. :roll:

:-s Yes. The umps all have Eddings back. :roll:

"I rarely look up there [home plate ump], but this time I did, and I saw he was out." - first baseman Darin Erstad. "Doug Eddings called him out, and somwehere along the line, because the guy ran to first base, he altered the call." - manager Mike Scioscia.

On a different note: What a jerk.

Is that a MLB rule for the ump to yell that? Also, what compelled AJP to run? AJP is a catcher and he knows the rules and he ran while Paul thought otherwise. Yeah, I want to know if it's REQUIRED for the ump to yell that. If it's not it should be, and the 1st and 3rd base umps also need to chime in immediately if they see a dropped ball. It would actually be a good idea to have the line umps approve all strikeouts to avoid uncertainty. It isn't required.

It would have saved the umps a lot of grief. competence also could have saved the umps a lot of grief. True. He made a mistake and it came back to bite him big time. How so? If he has to come to Anaheim today, let's just say Southern Californians have threatened to do more than bite him. :o Cuse, there's one inconsistency when you say Josh Paul should have tagged him just in case. Eddings and all MLB umps yell, "NOT CAUGHT! NOT CAUGHT!" when a catcher needs to tag or throw the ball to first. Eddings didn't do that. Don't blame Paul for Eddings screw up. AJP also heard no "NOT CAUGHT!" and yet he went to first base. Is that a MLB rule for the ump to yell that? Also, what compelled AJP to run? AJP is a catcher and he knows the rules and he ran while Paul thought otherwise. There's no rule, but when every umpire, including this umpire does it all the time there's a dropped third strike. Let's not forget, the previous batter, Aaron Rowand, struck out on a dropped third strike. There was a "NOT CAUGHT!" yell on that one. Let's also not forget Eddings "mechanics" were different on that dropped third strike - he waited to pump his fist for the out until Paul tagged Rowand. This time, Eddings did not yell "not caught" and did pump his fist for the out. Honestly? I think AJP ran just to see if he could get away with it. AJ took 2 steps towards the dugout and then ran to first. If you hear the postgame interview, AJP said he ran to first because he didn't think Josh Paul caught the ball. If that was so, why did he take two steps to the dugout first?

I think Eddings will be suspended - to protect him in Southern California. I wonder what the reaction would be if Angels fans saw him land at Ontario International Airport?

It would have saved the umps a lot of grief. competence also could have saved the umps a lot of grief. True. He made a mistake and it came back to bite him big time. How so? Indecision. How is it biting him? It's biting the Angels. So do the Angles. Do you think these guys are robots or something? They make mistakes and I'm sure they feel bad if they do. They sure showed no remose in the press conference.

It would have saved the umps a lot of grief. competence also could have saved the umps a lot of grief. True. He made a mistake and it came back to bite him big time. How so? If he has to come to Anaheim today, let's just say Southern Californians have threatened to do more than bite him. :o Cuse, there's one inconsistency when you say Josh Paul should have tagged him just in case. Eddings and all MLB umps yell, "NOT CAUGHT! NOT CAUGHT!" when a catcher needs to tag or throw the ball to first. Eddings didn't do that. Don't blame Paul for Eddings screw up. AJP also heard no "NOT CAUGHT!" and yet he went to first base.

About the only thing I'll say to that is that Paul should have tagged him to be sure. Other than that, the whole play was bull. True, he should have tagged him. One thing I read on their board was that Paul tossed the ball to the mound before the out call was made. Did anyone notice that? Either way, I personally did not see an angle that showed the ball hit the ground. And shouldn't that be irrelevant since he was called out? I guess this confuses me a bit. I still just don't understand why he signaled him out, then just let him take first. I think the ump was as confused as the Angels were. Not according to the Angels or Dodgers radio stations. They said Paul saw Eddings do the fist thing to acknowledge an out and then he rolled the ball to the mound. I just tivoed it and step played it and they really did it at the same time. Regardless, Paul saw nothing as he never looked back at Eddings. I dont believe that there was nothing verbal. There was nothing verbal - both Eddings and Paul admitted to it.

I hope Eddings is still umpiring this series come Game 3 in Anaheim.

This makes no sense to me. He didn't call no catch, so what in the hell do you expect Paul to do. And he is the ump, why is he letting the players dictate what happens? Exactly!