gus_dog

woo, the first snoty post directed toward me. I just got goosebumps :wink: :lol: Anyway, I just thought the part about DLee and AP's homerun production might be interesting in this debate. I think the whole park factor thing is overrated, for the most part. You looked at home runs, but a better overall indicator is that Lee has a 1.189 OPS at home and a 1.183 OPS on the road. Those are for all intents and purposes, identical. I also think the popular perception of Sammy Sosa was that he benefitted from Wrigley, though his overall and HR totals were just about dead even in his prime years. You already see that Aramis does not benefit much from Wrigley. And IIRC, several of the Marlins coaches said that Pro Player killed Derrek, and predicted 40+ HR from him outside of there. This makes sense since Lee's power is from alley to alley, and that is no man's land in Miami. In parks like that, only dead pull hitters will put up big numbers, and Derrek is not a dead pull hitter. The whole notion that Wrigley is a hitters paradise is really not accurate at all. It favors the hitters slightly, but not nearly as much as some think. The reason for this, IMO, is that it is a park of extremes. I say that because while eveyone knows about the days the wind is howling out and homers are easy to come by, more often the wind is blowing stright in, and in about a third of the games (rough estimation based on watching for 20 years), you may as well be trying to hit a ball out of the Grand Canyon. Some hitters have benefitted from the cozy alleys, but the 355 down the lines are no easy pokes. The bottom line is that while Wrigley will give you a lot of homers, it will take away a lot of them, also. Any players that do benefit are probably hitters with marginal power who plays there enough to mold his game to the field. Players who are great hitters with genuine power generally rise above the limitations or enhancements that a given field gives them Now there are players who benefit from their home parks greatly. Take Morgan Ensberg, for example. While Morgan oocasionally gets XBH to other fields, he is an extreme pull hitter. This is a huge advantage in MMP. Over the past three years, Ensberg's OPS has been nearly 300 points lower on the road. This year has been better, but there is still a 150+ point differential. His power numbers are also better than Pujols this year, but his you can attribute to park factors, unlike Lee. Here's another indicator. I looked at the number of parks played in this year, and how each player fared OPS-wise overall. Since a 1.000 OPS is the mark of excellence, so to speak, I wanted to see how many parks Lee, Pujols and Ensberg managed to reach that number in, and which ones. Pujols has played in 14 parks this year, and topped 1.000 in eight of them. He fared the best in Turner, Coors, Miller and Citizens Bank. Lee has played in 13 parks this year, and topped 1.000 in 10 of them. He has performed the best in Pro Player, Busch, Great American, Miller, BOB and Dodger Stadium. Ensberg has played in 13 parks this year, and topped 1.000 in 3 of them. He has fared well at MMP, Coors and Great American. Also, 17 of his 24 HR have been hit between those three hitters parks, and nowhere else has he hit more than 1. This is based on only this year, but the three year splits bear out around the same level of consistancy for Lee and Pujols. and inconsistancy for Ensberg. Statistically speaking Lee is actually the most consistant of the three, independent of park, though not the most productive. Ensberg I used to illustrate a player who has their stats inflated by ballpark. Lee does not fall into this category at all. In fact, if you rate his performance by park over the past three years, Wrigley sits right in the middle of the 23 parks he has played in over that time The same can be said of Pujols and Busch, right in the middle, 11th of 20. So from a relative performance standpoint, Pujols is no more consistant than Lee, and Lee is no more dependent on his home park than Albert. Awesome post, and I think the second half of it proves pretty well that DLee isn't park dependednt on power. I want to agree with the first half of your post (the one stating that Wrigley isn't a hitter's paradise), but I need to know why, despite your rational argument, Wrigley still gets a high HRPF? Poor pitching?

Hairston Garciaparra Walker Lee Ramirez Barrett Burnitz Hollandsworth Not a bad lineup if healthy

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To me, mediocre means that he is exactly that - average. I think of it like you can pretty much count on getting 4 runs a game off of him. The stats posted above, IMO, clearly show he is either very good, or very bad - in other words, inconsistent. If he was consistently average, then I would agree - mediocre, however he is not consistently average. In fact, he has been very inconsistent. I may just be splitting hairs, but I think you are much more likely to get a good performance from Maddux than you would from your typical, average, every day, ordinary, garden variety mediocre pitcher.

I went with only players that were still active, but I guess that wasn't in the rules :? So, if I could pick anyone.... I pick: 1) Ivan DeJesus 2) Pete LaCock (no kidding) 3) Oscar Zamora

Alou - Gosh, I miss his offencive production Vizcaino - Still a very good utility player, and imo, better than any of the utility guys they have now King - obviously, he has been very good out of the bullpen for the Cardinals. Of course, once Baker started misusing King & Vizcaino, they would commence sucking.

Why? Players signed for at least another year usually require more in a trade because the window is bigger for a payoff for losing your prospects. Mark Mulder is a good example of this. He's been average at best this year, but we'll have another year to evaluate him. On Wagner. This is the guy I've wanted all along. I think the Cards can find a younger OFer in the off season, but the addition of Wagner would be a huge boost. Besides giving backup to the closer position, it would make that bullpen one of, if not the best in baseball. It would make most games 6 inning contests. That said, Walt usually surprises at the trade deadline, so I don't think this one is going to happen. I half expect him to get an impact starter. I still fail to see how that is cheaper than I might think. 1) You have to give up decent prospects 2) If you don't sign him, those prospects are gone, and so is the player you got. Although, I guess you do get the compenstory pick from whatever team does sign him. 3) If you sign him, and he is talented (e.g. Wagner), that will cost plenty, especially with the stiff competition from teams like Boston. Of course, he could give Saint Louis the ever popular and famous 'home team discount' like all their other players do. :wink:

Bo Hart sounds like he was the next Lou Brock? :wink:

Puhleeeze.....save us the psycho-pop analysis. I will not admit that the Cardinas have comparable starting pitching. The Cardinal starters have been better, and it's not even close. The argument is that LaRussa was starting 'his guy' even though there was someone else more deserving. That's it.

Why?

That's the sign of a mediocre pitcher. If you're able to pitch that well in your wins and still be much closer to 5 than 4 as far as ERA, you're a streaky pitcher. Inconsistent maybe, but not necessarily mediocre.

That would be your opinion.

Anybody here think Sosa might actually be 42-44 years old? It kind of makes sense with his rapid descent a couple of years ago.

I disagree - this situation is nothing like 1998. McGwire was not nearly the complete players that Pujols, Lee, or even Sosa was (in 1998). McGwire had a great year hitting the long ball, and IIRC, he had more walks than singles. It was pretty much either he would hit a dinger, or walk. Sosa's year was complete, and probably his best overall.

Just like when Fick & Rodriguez tried to knock the ball loose. The player making the putout was NOT blocking their path to the base, and they had to INTENTIONALLY go out of their way to try to interfere, therefore, they were both called out. Although, I think that Fick was already out before he pulled his bush-league play. I think the rule says that a runner may not intentionally interfere with the play.

My post was relevant, and I didn't have a problem with Walker running over anyone taking a throw and blocking his way to the base (just like when a runner bowls over a catcher who is blocking the plate). We agree..., I think...? If a baserunner leaves the baseline to interfere, it is interference, but I believe that the runner is entitled to the base line (and base) as long as he does not interfere with a batted ball (or fielder trying to field a batted ball). Then he is out. Even if a runner inadvertantly interferes with a batted ball, he is out. That happened the other night in the Cubs/Marlins game when a runner was hit by the batted ball.

Really, neither do I, but Rolen rhymes with stolen.

Good..., objective was achieved. I am bored. I hate the all-star break as much as the Cardinals. :wink:

It's time for some light-hearted derision directed at our main adversaries. Oh my Cardinal hatred runs deep! From Kessinger, to Beckert, to Banks My love of the Cubs is great Lo, through the years they have caused me angst This has not made my Cub-fondness abate. A baseball purist, am I With love for chin music, and no patience for the DH I may not like other teams, but I try Like fine wine, the game gets better with age I am peaceful and kind of heart There is one thing, however That makes my responce quite tart Please, utter the name never The redbirds of Saint Louis are they And Oh, does my hatred for them run deep! If only the league would send them away This loyal Cub fan would be able to sleep From Musial, and Gibson, Boyer or Flood I always wish that they never succeed Since a Cardinal team playing as a dud, To me, is better than the best mead The Mad Hungarian was a bum And so was Mark McGwire With all his chemically induced runs Their consistent play could draw my ire Many of my Cubs’ seasons they have stolen Wearing of the ‘birds-on-the-bat’ is revolting Ah yes, and I hate Scott Rolen Too bad they didn’t keep Joe McEwing Oh, my hatred for the Cardinals runs deep! From the pit of my heart to the tip of my tongue Like the upper deck at Busch was so steep My Cardinal hatred is so strong, I wish them all dung. :twisted: :P :lol: G'day!

I'm pretty sure the fielder is entitlted to the basepath as long as he is fielding the ball. I didn't see the play, so I can't really judge in this case, but I don't think a runner has a right to knock a fielder out of the way that is fielding a throw, regardless of where they are in the basepath. Well, then what about a catcher blocking home plate? Nobody ever calls the runner coming from home out for interference when he plows the catcher over. The runner is entitled to the basepath, right? As long as he does not deliberately deflect the ball or pull an A-Rod and attempt to swat the ball out of the fielder's glove, I think giving a shove to a fielder as you run to first base is legal.

Piazza has been hitting well lately, but man, he is a seriously awful catcher.

This is exactly what I think LaRussa will do....bank on it!

Nobody got booted :?:

Yes..., but if Clemens pitched for the Cardinals, he easily has 13 wins, no? I really don't care who starts, but dragging out W-L record probably isn't the best stat to hang one's hat on for ASG. JMHO

I found this in another thread, but it makes more sense here: