CubbieBum

Bukie that is a completely different argument. You are arguing about where he ranks in trade value. We have been arguing where he ranks currently in performance. If you want to talk trade value which takes into account age and potential to still get better then I would have no problem with someone putting Rose 1st although he would probably be 2nd or 3rd on my list.

What's the bolded part mean? sigh it's an ichiro quote. What does it mean, are you serious? It's his name. come again? Ah I took your Noah telling it like it is as he was asked about Cleveland in post game and said that. Sorry it's late.

What's the bolded part mean?

1. Because if you are just a scorer you are a SG. The PG's main objective is to create opportunities for his team which tends to lead to assists. Not sure I understand why someone would argue that assists aren't important to PG's. 2. Being an All-Star means squat in the NBA because it is done by fan votes. McGrady nearly made the All-Star team this year when he was healthy but not playing. McGrady likely would have if the media didn't make a huge fuss causing a influx of votes to push him out. Plus try reading what I write. Rose is a top 6-10 PG in the league but to me the top 5 are quite a bit above the rest making everyone not in the top 5 a pretty far way from being in the top 5. Not sure how many more times I have to say this.

I dunno, its pretty close. Obviously you would rather have Rose in the long run because of age but Jason Kidd is still freakin' good. I guess it would really depend on the team. I make my list with a decent team in mind. Kidd is the better PG if the team is above .500 and thus has some other talent. Rose is better for a team that is awful because he can create his own shot. To me Kidd makes everyone a lot better on his team and that is the most important quality in a PG to me. That is not to say Rose doesn't make the rest of the Bulls better, just that Kidd is a lot better at it distributing and creating great looks for teammates.

Haha sideline reports are almost all horrible. They ask the dumbest questions. They either have a very obvious answer or are a very cliche question that never gets much of an answer.

Joakim Noah is awesome. Not one of my finer moments when I ridiculed that draft selection, although 95% of Bulls fans hated that pick. He's the man. Yep, I'm stunned at how he's turned out. I laughed my ass off at that pick. I remember Andy,and every other Bulls fan I know, complaining about that pick. I also remember arguing with Andy about it and bringing it up once or twice since he started doing well.

As I explained he is 6-10 in rank in my mind but the top 5 are quite a bit better than the rest so he isn't very close to being top 5.

I can't believe you're using assists to determine who's a good passer and who's not. If you've actually seen Rose play, you'd realize that he's a great passer. It doesn't help matters when you have teammates who constantly blow wide open jump shots to hinder your assist total. And Devin Harris doesn't have the same problem? The Bulls are a playoff team, albeit a bad one, but the Nets were one of the worst teams ever. Are you really trying to argue Rose had a relatively low assist total solely because of his supporting cast when others on worse teams had higher assists totals? Yes. Rose had to average close to 20 shots down the stretch to get us into the playoffs. The assist numbers will rise when he gets support around him. Well no [expletive] Sherlock. That does nothing to explain why he has lower assists than guys on much worse teams. You can try to explain it by him having to shoot more down the stretch but if you looked it up (as I just did) you will find that isn't true. He indeed shot more at the end of the season with 18.8 attempts in April but take a wild guess at what month he averaged the most assists. April. In fact his two highest monthly averages where in the final two months of the season. He shot more than his season average in the last month and shot less than season average in the second to last month. Considering that he averaged the most assists in those two months it's pretty easy to see his assists, at least this season, weren't tied to how many shots he was taking.

Well I love ARam but his play has been very frustrating. He is trying to swing for the fences in almost every at bat which is why he has stuck out swinging so many times. Swing for hits and the HR's will come and not the other way around.

I can't believe you're using assists to determine who's a good passer and who's not. If you've actually seen Rose play, you'd realize that he's a great passer. It doesn't help matters when you have teammates who constantly blow wide open jump shots to hinder your assist total. And Devin Harris doesn't have the same problem? The Bulls are a playoff team, albeit a bad one, but the Nets were one of the worst teams ever. Are you really trying to argue Rose had a relatively low assist total solely because of his supporting cast when others on worse teams had higher assists totals?

1. Paul 2. Nash 3. Deron 4. Rondo 5. Kidd I could see Curry rising into the top five next season, Collison is intriguing with his 19 pts 9 assists as a starter this year in replace of Paul, Rose has already been mentioned and Westbrook could develop further and join the conversation. Keep 'em coming. These are quite humorous. I really wish Rose had teammates like KG, Pierce, or Allen to make his job a lot easier. I'd settle for Dirk and Caron Butler. Amare and J-Rich really aren't bad options either. How Rose isn't in your top five is absolutely ridiculous and diminishes your NBA credibility; not like it needs to take another hit. Rose isn't that close to the top 5. If you think he is then you must be going off reputation alone. As I posted in the other thread where Rose was discussed you can't blame everything on his supporting cast. Devin Harris averaged more assists this year. So did Paul who doesn't have much of a supporting cast (and Collison when he was a starter). Rose has the ability to be towards the top in assists but he isn't there yet. He's a good scorer but not that far above a a bunch of other PG's who averaged a good amount more in assists while still scoring 16+. Rose is in the 5-10 group but the top five, especially top 3 are pretty far above the rest in my opinion.

1. Paul 2. Nash 3. Deron 4. Rondo 5. Kidd I could see Curry rising into the top five next season, Collison is intriguing with his 19 pts 9 assists as a starter this year in replace of Paul, Rose has already been mentioned and Westbrook could develop further and join the conversation. So you took the assist leaderboard but gave Paul injury credit so you moved him ahead of Nash. No I did that list without looking anything up. The only reason I knew what Collison had done is that I looked it up the other day because I attended his breakout game as a starter and was curious just how well he had done the rest of the way. I don't know much about who was where on the assist list. I tend to look at that stuff in the offseason when I get bored and football hasn't started yet.

1. Paul 2. Nash 3. Deron 4. Rondo 5. Kidd I could see Curry rising into the top five next season, Collison is intriguing with his 19 pts 9 assists as a starter this year in replace of Paul, Rose has already been mentioned and Westbrook could develop further and join the conversation.

The guy I wanted most is available and happens to be the guy Jame mentioned to me first in guys he would like. Therefore our pick is Vladimir Ducasse - OT/G UMass. Even with knabbing a guy we thought we would use to return in Wilson earlier I would be ecstatic at this point if this is how it really plays out. We get a top OT, a top CB and a a guy who has versatility on the OL. Ducasse is a bit of risk from what I've read but with taking Williams earlier we can afford to take a guy who has bit higher risk and higher reward than the rest of the players available. If both Williams and Ducasse were to pan out we would have a very good OL which with Gore and a passing game quickly on the rise we could end up having a great offense with almost all players in their early-early-to-mid 20's.

This post expresses a totally different thought than you're first one. I dont think people are shocked, I think they are just using analysis to prove your "luck" theories wrong. I dont really care about this issue either way, so, I'll drop it. Just making sure I'm not being accused of being arrogan just because I couldnt tell if a guy was joking or not when he claimed all of Dave Duncan's pitchers turn to gold because he gives them steroids. Tony Larussa is a drug trafficer. There I said it. No way. None of this stuff happened when he was in Oakland.

I'd settle for Eddie Harris.

After MLB told managers last Friday that they could only wear jerseys or apparel OK'd by them Maddon wore a hoodie under his jacket the other night. MLB barred him from wearing hoodies altogether now. Maddon's response is ... I think he is right. He is pretty damn sexy with that hoodie on. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5114892

I'm glad we let so many chances get away from us early in the game so we are now down.

I agree that he would be a natural in that role, certainly better than the other 2 even if all he threw were curves and change-ups. What was most awful for LaRussa was his burning out the pen for his endless switch's, while Manual had 3 good arms left when the Cards hit the wall. And to lift Holliday and put the pitcher in the 4 hole effectively shut down Pujols. He was happily walked to get to the pitcher twice to load the bases. What a luxury for Charlie! AP and MH BOTH taken out of the equasion. Good grief! Yeah I remember tuning into the game late (15th?) and noticing Holliday was out and wondering how the heck that happened. If he had started why take him out of a 0-0 game? If he didn't start why wouldn't you put him in for a pinch hit late when it was 0-0 and then keep him in in case it remains tied?

What I am trying to say is Rose is by far the best athlete ever to play the point guard spot. His assists are down because he plays on a bad team with a bunch of lousy jump shooters. I'm a Deron Williams mark and were I running the Jazz I would trade Deron Williams and my top pick for Rose. Considering where the Jazz could be picking, that's madness. You'd trade Deron Williams and a shot at Evan Turner/John Wall for Rose???? I'd have to see where the pick landed. If it's not one of those two, yes I would. This draft looks to be 2 deep to me. That is still crazy. Deron is a better passer, can shoot from anywhere as well as drive pretty well. Right now Deron is better. I would take him over Rose in a trade. Rose may turn out better but at the worst with Deron you are getting 18-10. Rose may never reach that level. Rose would certainly have more assists with a better cast (his scoring may go down) but 6 assists is still bad. Paul got 10.7 this year with crap around him except for West. Baron Davis also managed 8 assists with the Clippers. Heck even Devin Harris averaged 6.6.

Sulley has you beat hands down. that was the most interesting thing ever written about engineering and you know it :rotfl:

Yep that is realistic. Use a guys career stats when he has only started for one season. Seems far to me. Rose 2009-10: 20.8 points, 6 assists, 3.8 rebounds, .489 FG% on 1373 FGA (.495 Adjusted FG%), .267 3PT% on 60 3PA, .766 FT% on 338 FTA, 36.8 minutes Brooks 2009-10: 19.6 points, 5.3 assists, 2.6 rebounds, .432 FG% on 1331 FGA (.511 Adjusted FG%), .398 3PT% on 525 3PA, .822 FT% on 298 FTA, 35.6 minutes Everyone, including me, would take Rose but it is not a large gap. Brooks is one of the best 3-pt shooters in the league (No. 1 in attempts and makes this year) and drives well because no one can stay with him but lacks a good jumper. Rose has a good jumper and drives well because he has good quickness and size for his position. If I'm not mistaken both are also helped in driving by having ridiculous verticals. Oh my bad, Rose was good enough to start from day one. I just assumed Brooks was as well. Also it's such a wide gap if Houston called and offered Aaron Brooks for Rose Paxson would luagh and then hang up. If the roles were reversed Houston's GM would drive Aaron to the airport. Rose is a stud and you tried to limit his ability becuase he can't shoot threes. Neither could Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan. They ended up alright. Like I said Rose is better so of course every team would rather have him. Rose has also likely not yet hit his peak while Brooks likely has. That is the biggest reason why everyone would jump at the chance to trade Brooks for Rose. Anyways Jordan wasn't a PG and Magic's game is different than any other PG's in history because he was so big and capable of playing C in short stints which he did rarely in his career but still did. They were also both more than 6% better than Rose on career 3P%. By the end of their careers they were better, what were their stats their first two years? Plus Rose is different from every point guard ever, name me one other point guard who catches reverse alley oops. Go ahead I'll wait. Rose is a freak athlete and is going to go down as one of the best pgs of all time barring an injury. Rose may indeed do that but he needs to get his assists way up before even being able to be one of the best current PG's. So you're saying no other PG in history had the capability to do reverse alley-oops? Just because others haven't doesn't mean they couldn't. This is different from Rose's 3PT shooting ability. He can shoot them just not well. Right now I would compare Rose to D-Wade. Rose is a good player who can raise his game to Wade's level but never is really a a true PG. He's a hybrid of PG and SG. LeBron is as much a PG as either of them to me. LeBron plays a very similar game to Magic now that I think of it.

Yep that is realistic. Use a guys career stats when he has only started for one season. Seems far to me. Rose 2009-10: 20.8 points, 6 assists, 3.8 rebounds, .489 FG% on 1373 FGA (.495 Adjusted FG%), .267 3PT% on 60 3PA, .766 FT% on 338 FTA, 36.8 minutes Brooks 2009-10: 19.6 points, 5.3 assists, 2.6 rebounds, .432 FG% on 1331 FGA (.511 Adjusted FG%), .398 3PT% on 525 3PA, .822 FT% on 298 FTA, 35.6 minutes Everyone, including me, would take Rose but it is not a large gap. Brooks is one of the best 3-pt shooters in the league (No. 1 in attempts and makes this year) and drives well because no one can stay with him but lacks a good jumper. Rose has a good jumper and drives well because he has good quickness and size for his position. If I'm not mistaken both are also helped in driving by having ridiculous verticals. Oh my bad, Rose was good enough to start from day one. I just assumed Brooks was as well. Also it's such a wide gap if Houston called and offered Aaron Brooks for Rose Paxson would luagh and then hang up. If the roles were reversed Houston's GM would drive Aaron to the airport. Rose is a stud and you tried to limit his ability becuase he can't shoot threes. Neither could Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan. They ended up alright. Like I said Rose is better so of course every team would rather have him. Rose has also likely not yet hit his peak while Brooks likely has. That is the biggest reason why everyone would jump at the chance to trade Brooks for Rose. Anyways Jordan wasn't a PG and Magic's game is different than any other PG's in history because he was so big and capable of playing C in short stints which he did rarely in his career but still did. They were also both more than 6% better than Rose on career 3P%. Oh and excuse the Rockets for not wanting to switch PG's when they were winning 50+ games every year. Plus some guys take a year or two to breakout. That has no bearing whatsoever on how good they are presently compared to someone who was good enough to start right away. I'm not surprised you try to use it though.

Not really. He shoots an OK percentage, doesn't get to the free throw line at a particularly high rate, is a below average rebounder, and doesn't block shots. A nice piece, but just a solid #2 or #3 on a good team. It's much easier to find Lamarcus Aldridge and a good (not great) young guard than one great player you can build a contender around. Rose needs to learn how to shoot and not be a one-dimensional scorer before I put him in that category. Rose is a great driver but that is it for his scoring abilities. He can average 20 points a game, maybe more, with that but will never become a top player if he can't shoot better than 25% from 3-pt on less than one attempt per game. He's atrocious at shooting from out. He may be the worst 3-pt shooting PG in the league which will always limit his game and stop him from becoming truly great player. Earlier you said that Aaron Brooks was a stud. For fun, Rose .483 from the field 6.2 assists 3.8 rebounds for his career Brooks .421 from the field 3.6 assists 2.0 rebounds for his career Do you understand how basketball works? Yep that is realistic. Use a guys career stats when he has only started for one season. Seems far to me. Rose 2009-10: 20.8 points, 6 assists, 3.8 rebounds, .489 FG% on 1373 FGA (.495 Adjusted FG%), .267 3PT% on 60 3PA, .766 FT% on 338 FTA, 36.8 minutes Brooks 2009-10: 19.6 points, 5.3 assists, 2.6 rebounds, .432 FG% on 1331 FGA (.511 Adjusted FG%), .398 3PT% on 525 3PA, .822 FT% on 298 FTA, 35.6 minutes Everyone, including me, would take Rose but it is not a large gap. Brooks is one of the best 3-pt shooters in the league (No. 1 in attempts and makes this year) and drives well because no one can stay with him but lacks a good jumper. Rose has a good jumper and drives well because he has good quickness and size for his position. If I'm not mistaken both are also helped in driving by having ridiculous verticals.