Skyballer

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is pretty much never overrated. Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else. MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2? irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average. My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second. You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot. But you're proposing someting that won't happen. Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you. So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter? As far as who IS on the Cubs. Theriot is the best option and there is no real upgrade previously available on the market. Also, Mods can you split this thread?

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade? There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense. Heres the proof. cubs are playing small ball small ball=sb+singles sb+singles=Riot that is not proof. at all. proof would be numbers showing how his performance is above and beyond what we could reasonably hope to achieve via an alternative avenue. what you've given us is a bland statement that means nothing. sb+singles=riot? come on. I've giving numbers that deal with Theriot compared to league averages for a SS, so has truffle and TT. They will prove Theriot to have above average nubers for a SS. As far as the alternative, think in house or none.

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is pretty much never overrated. Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else. MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2? irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average. My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second. You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot. But you're proposing someting that won't happen. As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now. Tell me, why do you and everyone worship the almighty OPS? OBP is much more important.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade? There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense. Heres the proof. cubs are playing small ball small ball=sb+singles sb+singles=Riot

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions. Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR. Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power. Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is. So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS. The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well." Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power. So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count? We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using. What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good. Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using. Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers? If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic. Once again. The season consists of 162 games. They all matter. Sure, Z was bad to start the season, but he has gotten much better and now his numbers are very respectable. The Cubs offense has been better, but over the course of the season they have been below average. Yes, but not because of Theriot, because of underachievers like Sori who are being paid to be average.

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions. Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR. Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power. Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is. So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS. The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well." Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power. So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count? We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using. What are you talking about? Z's season numbers are very good. Are we supposed to discount when the team plays badly and when players slump? That's the logic you're using. Theriot is having a great July, but did you look at his May and June numbers? If we're going to use your logic then we should remeber Z's start of the year- Pathetic.

YAY, go K-Wood.

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions. Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR. Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power. Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is. So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS. The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well." Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power. So the games we played at the beginning of the year don't count? We are scoring runs right now and we are winning right now without power. Of course, the earlier games count. However we are still winning NOW, what happened earlier is in the past we need to score runs now and we are. I don't see anyone bashing Z right now. That's the logic you're using.

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions. Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR. Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power. Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is. So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS. The Cubs are 19th out of the 30 MLB teams in runs scored. I wouldn't call that "scoring runs very well." Need I remind you of the terrible beginning of the season, that's why we have those numbers. As of late we are scoring runs very well. Without alot of power.

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is pretty much never overrated. Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else. MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2? irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average. My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions. Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR. Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power. Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is. So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson? No i said SB was important. They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners. Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll: Which is a solid reason why SS should be upgraded. You weakened your own point -- Theriot's power is irrelevant because he gets on base and creates runs. The Cubs need more power, and SS is a part of that weakness. They're winning elsewhere.

:?: What does that mean :?:

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is pretty much never overrated. what it all comes down to is runs scored, not homeruns.

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson? No i said SB was important. They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners. Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll: "Power" doesn't only mean home runs. And I'm not saying that stolen bases can't help the team from time time...you were stating that "SB are important" in terms of baseball in general, and they're not as important as they were when guys like Ricky were playing. Stolen bases should not be the major driving factor for a player to be signed/traded for/drafted/assigned playing time/etc.. Fact: the Cubs are playing small ball Fact: SB are key in small ball Conclusion: Theriot is a key part to this offense The Cubs arent really playing small ball. They are stringing singles and doubles together, but there hasnt been a lot of bunting and such. so, someone singles and then steals and the next person singles now there is a run(usually). Theriot is best at stealing on this team, he is not a hole in this team.

Are you going to change the argument every time you can't reply to the previous one that you also basically started? which argument, i never back down from one.

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson? No i said SB was important. They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners. Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll: "Power" doesn't only mean home runs. And I'm not saying that stolen bases can't help the team from time time...you were stating that "SB are important" in terms of baseball in general, and they're not as important as they were when guys like Ricky were playing. Stolen bases should not be the major driving factor for a player to be signed/traded for/drafted/assigned playing time/etc.. Fact: the Cubs are playing small ball Fact: SB are key in small ball Conclusion: Theriot is a key part to this offense

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson? No i said SB was important. They're much less important now than they were in Ricky's heyday. The game is much more reliant on power now to advance and score runners. Because we all know the Cubs are leading the league in HR :roll:

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello Did you just compare the Riot to Rickey Henderson? No i said SB was important.

and 6 of 14 in rc/g. guess that's not important either

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA okay so now we're delving into the unimportant statistics. Shall we head along to stolen bases? I already did, in terms of unimportant, Henderson waves hello

in one statistic (albeit an important one) How 'bout 6 of 14 in BA

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is not overrated, except in OPS, where it weighs too much. But OBP is the more important of the two statistics. Still, I think the bigger holes are in the OF. In RF, the Cubs have the 22nd OPS in baseball, but the 28th SLG, which is really not good from a position that is supposed to provide some pop. In CF, the Cubs are 24th in OPS and have a miserable .301 OBP. And of course at catcher, the Cubs have a horrendous .597 OPS, which is 27th in the league. This includes a .205 BA (!!!) and a .268 OBP. So yeah, I do wish we had a better SS. But there are three other positions on the team which are bigger problems. Theriot is 11 of 27 in OBP in terms of SS for the league, and 4 of 30 in SB, He's above average. Out of 7 qualified for sb% he is FIRST :!: :!: , I'll take Theriot.