Skyballer

RBI opportunities are rare for Theriot seeing as he mostly just has Sori if he gets on base without hitting a big fly.

Should be nice to see Papelbon, any scouting on him Raisin?

which makes his almighty OPS near 800. And since all we care about is OPS then wouldn't this make him an elite SS.

beware of Modzilla.

Because his SB% is the best amongst all qualified SS.

Riot is a good baserunner and surely his CS would still be relatively low, so the adjustment isn't that much. At the very lest SLG would look like .480. No I haven't crunched the numbers but if someone would like to, feel free.

What's downright painful is to listen to Brinoch who only cares about one thing. Power is over rated, the reason: you don't take into considration SB. I know Riot only has 19, yet I still reason that if he is sent nearly as much as Reyes he will have a lot more SB while still keeping his CS low. So essentially about half of his singles are SB which would make his SLG around .500 :shock: that's right brinoch if we had a manager that sent the baserunner every time we would have a very good SS, all-star caliber. None the less, Lou is doing his job just swell: he only sends the baserunner when it is going to help the team so alot of those singles that remain singles are not hurting the team at all.

It's not, though. Hanley Ramirez and David Eckstein play the same position for their respective National League teams. They both had a .292 BA last year. Hanley had a 54.9 VORP, Eckstein was at 8.5. Batting averages the same, but one guy is massively better than the other. I still don't understand VORP, could you explain it please.

no, i'm saying how often he gets a hit doesn't tell me much about how much someone contributes offensively. No but it tells quite a bit For instance if someone can get a hit 35% of the time then he is a good player even if he is a below average power hitter.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value. they're not the only way, but on a message board, they're usually the best. nah let's get back to the good ol' days of using batting average to determine a player's worth Ba is a very good stat, just not as good as OBP. Someone who hits .350 with 10 homers is much better than a .220 hitter with 40 homers I'm not referring to anyone just saying. using average and home runs is only slightly better than using average and nothing else. are we talking about pedro feliz or adam dunn? are we talking about ichiro or joe mauer? I'm just saying that BA is a good measure of skill, still OBP is the best except that it's not. it tells you very little about a player's ability to be a positive contributor offensively to his baseball team. so you're saying how often he gets a hit doesn't mean anyting :shock:

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value. they're not the only way, but on a message board, they're usually the best. nah let's get back to the good ol' days of using batting average to determine a player's worth Ba is a very good stat, just not as good as OBP. Someone who hits .350 with 10 homers is much better than a .220 hitter with 40 homers I'm not referring to anyone just saying. using average and home runs is only slightly better than using average and nothing else. are we talking about pedro feliz or adam dunn? are we talking about ichiro or joe mauer? I'm just saying that BA is a good measure of skill, still OBP is the best

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value. they're not the only way, but on a message board, they're usually the best. nah let's get back to the good ol' days of using batting average to determine a player's worth Ba is a very good stat, just not as good as OBP. Someone who hits .350 with 10 homers is much better than a .220 hitter with 40 homers I'm not referring to anyone just saying.

already went through this. he has 1 extra steal in close and late situations, 2 fewer CS. it's not like reyes is a bum on the bases. he beats the break-even point of 77. Theriot is a better base stealer and percentages prove it. How many steals are simply in close situations for Theriot and Reyes.

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!: Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade. he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at). what about getting on base. 11 out of 27 for SS i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash. OBP is more important for sure. When he hits a single there's a good chance he steals second making it a double. he has 19 steals this year. not 50 like reyes where it's legitimately a good chance he actually turns a single into a double. OBP is more important, but you're putting too much emphasis on it and de-valuing power almost completely. it's ridiculous. Those steals occur whe they need to, if he was sent as much as Reyes or tried in dumb sitautions as much as Reyes he would have more steals

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!: Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade. he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at). what about getting on base. 11 out of 27 for SS i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash. OBP is more important for sure. When he hits a single there's a good chance he steals second making it a double.

winning is GOOD.

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!: Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade. he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at). what about getting on base. 11 out of 27 for SS

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all? THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!: Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average. he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much. They've come in meaningful times. unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers. Clutch stolen bases? That's a first. :lol: would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run. You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time? Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes? Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade. That's not what I asked. I asked you who you would rather have starting on your team. Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average. he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much. They've come in meaningful times. unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers. Clutch stolen bases? That's a first. :lol: would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run. You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time? Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes? Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average. he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much. They've come in meaningful times. unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers. Clutch stolen bases? That's a first. :lol: would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average. he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much. They've come in meaningful times. unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average. What do you think of Juan Pierre as a player? show me stats and i'll tell you.

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS. Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719 So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year. Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter. Power is pretty much never overrated. Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else. MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2? irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average. My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second. You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot. But you're proposing someting that won't happen. Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you. So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter? As far as who IS on the Cubs. Theriot is the best option and there is no real upgrade previously available on the market. Also, Mods can you split this thread? Another hypothetical question...let's say Cuban buys the team and ARod opts out and miracle of miracles, the Cubs sign him. He's older and bigger than when he last played it, but would you want Theriot playing SS over him? I'm just trying to see how far you're willing to go with this. Do you take me for an idiot, sorry but come on i'm an intelligent person, of course I want A-Rod.

you seem to forget SB and fielding. and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.