Sammy Sofa

So the only real evidence for you is whether a guy "got huge." Stellar detective skills.

Remember, MLB conducted it's first "real" test for PEDs in 2003. Curious to see what counts as "real evidence" for you.

So you shouldn't doubt any performance prior to 2002. I don't. He had HOF numbers/trajectory pre. 2002. So you have no issue with Sosa's numbers pre-2002.

A good ol' fashioned dogpile is good for the board and good for the soul.

Because you're approaching this with all the critical thinking ability of a child.

So you shouldn't doubt any performance prior to 2002.

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols. You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades. Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not. You've had people on the same team as him who admitted to using them: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm You have him having a bizarre, late career power surge, plus two teammates also having outlier power surge seasons when they played with him: http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/02/hammerin_hank_a.html Basically it wouldn't be a surprise at all to find out he used them. But nobody is going to come out and accuse him of it because even if they were right there there's absolutely no proof. They'd be instantly made a villain and would have no argument but their word.

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols. You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

How do you know who was clean and when?

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs! And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

Yes, when he's the most expensive he's ever been and coming off of arguably his worst season since 2006. What a trade chip!

How do you not know? Look at the numbers.

And Bonds's last 3-5 were his best weren't they? This wasn't just about longevity. He had his best years or at least close to it at the end. This wasn't about extending his career while putting up similar or slightly worse numbers. He had all time years. Yes, he had his best seasons post-1998: 11.9 WAR in 2009, 11.8 in 2002 and 10.6 in 2004. But he still had amazing years prior to 1999: 8.0, 9.7, 7.9, 9.0, 9.9, 7.5, 9.7, 8.1, 8.1. Nobody is arguing that that he didn't benefit from using; the issue is with your idea is that he wasn't a fantastic player before he was using. You subtract his entire career from 199 onward and he is still a phenomenal "once in a generation" talent.

So then you have a theory as to how many more he hit because of them? Outside of his one crazy season, bonds managed to tack on about 7-10 from his best pre-usage power seasons, and he was one of the greatest hitters of all time. Shaving off about 10 home runs from each of McGwire's big power/full/full-ish/around 100 games played seasons still has him around 450 home runs for his career. You're really saying that the guy hit most of the home runs in his career simply because of PEDs? I don't think you can really use Bonds' HR totals as a baseline since he was getting pitched to about once every 4 or 5 PAs. You're right (though he routinely lead the league in IBB for almost a decade straight through 1998, though those totals were obviously a lot lower). It's also not fair/accurate to shift over those kind of numbers from a hitter like Bonds to a much more (relatively) flawed hitter like McGwire, which is why I at least took the "max" 10 off for him for at least 13 seasons. I mean, the whole thing is an exercise in hypotheticals and subjectivity; I just think the idea that McGwire had like 100+ (or even around 150) HR that were "helped" out over his career is a LOT more realistic than just saying most of his numbers were based on PED use. That guy was a HR beast from the day he started playing baseball.

You're on a very slippery slope when you're using examples of past players who almost certainly were using greenies like they were candy. Greenies at the very least. PEDs as we know them have basically existed since WW2, and really took off in sports in the 60's. That people willfully act like PEDs outside of speed weren't around prior to the late 80's are just flat out wrong. Yeah, but that whole old school baseball mentality that extra muscle would slow your swing/pitches down makes me think that it would be a much slower adaptation to use in baseball. You don't really hear about widespread use in football until the 70s, so even if that's late, I would think the 70s is about the earliest baseball would have seen any significant use. Again, you had people worldwide using them to be able to train harder and play through injuries and build strength without turning into a monster; that's the part that came later and that's what so many people assume is the hallmark of a PED-user. People can and could easily use them to build strength without turning into a juicehead.

How do you know he "got 200 homers due to PED's?"

So then you have a theory as to how many more he hit because of them? Outside of his one crazy season, bonds managed to tack on about 7-10 from his best pre-usage power seasons, and he was one of the greatest hitters of all time. Shaving off about 10 home runs from each of McGwire's big power/full/full-ish/around 100 games played seasons still has him around 450 home runs for his career. You're really saying that the guy hit most of the home runs in his career simply because of PEDs?

Yes, Josh Vitters.

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on. He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on: http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html A lot of people were So your theory is that Mark McGwire was on PEDs most of his life and only hit home runs because of them.

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player. Where does his WAR line up with Piazza's when Sosa was on roids? Point is Sosa only has HOF stats due to roids. He became once in a generation directly due to them. How do you know this? You keep throwing it out there like you know for sure how many home runs he hit with and without them. AND HE WASN'T A ONCE IN A GENERATION TALENT. STOP SAYING THAT.

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on. He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on: http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

You're on a very slippery slope when you're using examples of past players who almost certainly were using greenies like they were candy. Greenies at the very least. PEDs as we know them have basically existed since WW2, and really took off in sports in the 60's. That people willfully act like PEDs outside of speed weren't around prior to the late 80's are just flat out wrong.

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on. What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right? Sosa doesn't have all-time great stats outside of his home run numbers. And again, you don't know when Sosa started using. As TT pointed out, Sosa doesn't have "once in a generation" numbers. Like a lot of these guys, he had one insane year where he had a 10+ WAR and then a lot of good to very good seasons. Unless you think home runs alone make a player amazing, your argument broken from the get-go.

Hank Aaron used [expletive] PEDs. Regularly. Dude, everyone knows steroids were totally invented in 1993 and NOBODY EVER USED ANYTHING BEFORE THAT EVER.

They sure didn't think it when it was going on and nobody said anything. Everyone loved it at the time. And it's not all that unlikely that Aaron was using, too.