cubbyvirus00

I disagree with that and I think part of the reason that they've stood pat is because fans are filling the stadium and that we're still high over the MJ title runs. Business is good for Reinsdorf. What? They were still selling out even when the team sucked. I'm talking about from 2000 and forward. Your right, they've been selling out for the better part of a decade. My point is that from then until business has been great and they haven't needed to make major shakeups and changes.

I disagree with that and I think part of the reason that they've stood pat is because fans are filling the stadium and that we're still high over the MJ title runs. Business is good for Reinsdorf.

Following sports is not limited to watching the games and occasionally turning on ESPN. Some people enjoy the debates. :hello:

Yikes, 32k posts of elitist junk like this? It's not "elitist" to point out how obviously flawed your reasoning is. Not but it is to post a mock quotation of somebody else in a fake courtroom setting, straying off-topic to show the internets how you're the almighty king of all Chicago sports. It's not off topic. Stop complaining just because everyone disagrees with you. People I dont know disagree with me? Oh no! If UMF makes a quality post to help change my reasoning or line of thought I'm all for it. You choosing to stray off topic is unproductive. The Bulls have been too conservative the last 10 years because they refused to completely rebuild and instead put mediocre players on a team that never had a chance. You can't draft mid first round year in year out and expect to field a championship contender without the addition of big-time impact FAs and trades to help with that process. Without looking, the Bulls have whiffed on early every major FA target they ever had that I can remember. T-Mac and even the possible Kobe trade come to mind. Didn't the Kobe trade come down to Pax not wanting to part with Deng? I can't completely remember.

Yikes, 32k posts of elitist junk like this? It's not "elitist" to point out how obviously flawed your reasoning is. Not but it is to post a mock quotation of somebody else in a fake courtroom setting, straying off-topic to show the internets how you're the almighty king of all Chicago sports.

I never said the last two seasons they have been 'toiling fruitlessly.' Read better plz. So what does this mean? That only applied to every year except the last two? Yes. Our discussion/debate was centered around their Bulls drafting in years past. My point is that they've played it too conservative for too long.

Yikes, 32k posts of elitist junk like this?

I never said the last two seasons they have been 'toiling fruitlessly.' Read better plz.

So they weren't actually a good team...only Rose was good and they tricked everyone to make it where they did? This is damn near gibberish. Wait...what? Don't get it twisted. Paxson did very little to make that team better in 2010. They still had the players in place before that season started and Rose covered up the huge hole of deficiencies on that team. *If this team was so great in 2011 the bulls with or without Rose should have gotten past the first round. OK I've obviously wasted my time as you know nothing about basketball. Guess how many 2009-2010 Bulls played on the 2010-2011 Bulls? 4! They went from 27th in offense and 13th in defensive rating to 11th and 1st. So you're telling me that Derrick Rose singlehandedly made them go from a mediocre team to the top 2-3 in the NBA just from an offseason of improvement? And that the addition of Thibs, Brewer, Bogans, Asik, Thomas and Watson had nothing to do with the Bulls improving into the best defense in the NBA? It was just Derrick Rose learning how to guard all 5 positions at once? Please read a book on basketball before continuing to post in this thread. Any book. Seriously, I'm would think even a book like this one would somehow help you improve your basketball knowledge: http://s.ecrater.com/stores/158321/4c0efe86bb026_158321n.jpg So you're going to tell me that Brewer, Bogans, Asik, Thomas and Watson had a whole lot to do with their jump in offensive rating? Yes I am telling you Derrick Rose made that ENTIRE team better.

This is hilarious especially the part about the draft 2003: 1 (7) Kirk Hinrich 2004: 1 (3) Ben Gordon 2004: 1 (9) Traded essentially cash for the rights to Luol Deng 2004: 2 (8) Chris Duhon 2006: 1 (2) Tyrus Thomas (essentially) 2006: 1 (16) Thabo Sefolosha (essentially) 2007: 1 (9) Joakim Noah 2007: 2 (21) JamesOn Curry 2008: 1 (1) Derrick Rose 2008: 2 (?) Omer Asik 2009: 1 (16) James Johnson 2009: 1 (26) Taj Gibson 2011: 1 (23) Nikola Mirotic 2011: 1 (30) Jimmy Butler 2012: 1 (29) Marquis Teague I mean jeez, relative to pick in the draft, how can anyone look at that drafting history and say Pax has done a poor job drafting? Being able to get a border line All-Star in Deng for nothing. Finding a servicable backup PG in Duhon in the middle of the 2nd round. Getting a top 5 NBA Center in Noah at 9. Getting an excellent defensive guard who starts for the current WC champs at 16. Having the foresight to draft Asik in the late 2nd round and waiting for him to develop and come over to become one of the best defensive big men in the NBA? Drafting a 6th man of the year candidate in Taj Gibson 26th. Turning a situation where they didn't have room on the roster for a second 1st round pick into one of the Bulls best assets currently in Mirotic. Yes he missed big time on Tyrus, James Johnson is ok but disappointing and JamesOn Curry was nothing (but was a late 2nd round pick). Other than that, they have drafted nothing but solid players since 2003. You are looking at 1 superstar, 3 minor stars (Noah, Deng, Gordon), 3 more solid starters (Hinrich, Gibson, Thabo), and 4 solid rotation players on winning teams. I'm not putting Mirotic, Butler and Teague on this list but Butler already looks like he's earned enough trust to replace Brewer in the rotation, Mirotic looks like a potential star in the making or at least a solid starter, and most people gave the Bulls high marks for Teague. So yeah once again, you make a statement that is so far from the truth, you look completely silly. Can we somehow ban virus from the Bulls and Bears threads? Yet again, I see a lot of 'solid' mediocre players. He's done very little in terms of first round picks and you're omitting the blunder of trading Aldridge for TT among others. In almost 10 years hes drafted 1 superstar with the first pick of the draft and drafted a 1 time borderline all star in Deng who is a nice complementary piece, third option. His free agent gets (and lack of) are below average and I'm not sure he's learned to utilize the 'trade' option in the league. The Bulls also bungled the Skiles situation which leaves me curious to see what they do with Thibs. I'm not omitting Tyrus, I mentioned him right there. Considering he hasn't had had a top 10 pick since 2007, he's done an awesome job drafting. In 2004, the only players to make an ASG from that draft were Dwight Howard (drafted before any Bulls picks) Devin Harris, Lu Deng, Andre Iguodala, and Jameer Nelson. Tell me what superstar the Bulls should have drafted there? Considering names like Josh Childress, Shaun Livingston, Rafael Araujo, and Luke Jackson were top 10 picks that year, you would have to be an idiot to say anything about that draft. In 2003, the Bulls drafted Hinrich after the first 6 picks were LeBron, Darko, Melo, Bosh, Wade and Kaman. After that the only future all-stars taken were David West (18th), Josh Howard (29th) and Mo Williams (41st). Again, there's no way you can criticize Pax for taking Hinrich, especially because Jay Williams decided to end his NBA career leaving the Bulls a huge hole at PG. In 2006, Tyrus was a bust of a pick, despite still being a really solid rotation player that would fit on many good teams. He missed out on the following 3 stars, Aldridge (essentially 4th), Roy (6th) and Rondo (21). Roy we can use hindsight to excuse Pax for that, and if you want to be a dick you can rip on him for not taking Rondo 19 picks ahead of where he was expected to go but whatever. Same thing for Thabo, Rondo is the only player you could definitively say is better than Thabo where the Bulls picked (and probably Kyle Lowry). In 2007, the only All-Star taken after Noah was Marc Gasol (48th). Noah is a borderline all star in his own right. He is clearly the best or 2nd best player that was available when the Bulls picked In 2009, at the 26th pick, there were no All-Stars (so far) picked after Taj. The best player picked after Taj is probably Toney Douglass. Obviously at 16, even while understanding that James Johnson was one of 2 first round Bulls picks (out of 12) in the Pax era that he missed out on, the best player taken between James Johnson and Taj is either Ty Lawson or Jrue Holiday. Good players, definitely not stars, and understandable considering the Bulls drafted a pretty good PG in the previous year's draft. In 2011, when he traded for Mirotic at 23, the best players following him are names like MarShon Brooks, JuJuan Johnson and Norris Cole. I'd take Mirotic and his potential a million times over. Jimmy Butler was picked 30th....I honestly couldnt tell you a better player picked after Butler...maybe Chandler Parsons? No stars So where are all these All-Stars the Bulls should have taken? The only All-Stars you can actually say the Bulls could have drafted at their position and didn't are LaMarcus Aldridge and possibly Rajon Rondo. In 10 years of GM, he's missed on exactly 3 of his 15 draft picks, with only 1 lottery miss (out of 7), and 2 first round misses (and James Johnson is being kind calling a miss). And in those 10 years, he's only missed out on 2 All-Stars that would have been better than the picks he made, both in the same draft. In his 15 draft picks, he arguably took the best player that was available to him in 11 of them (the 4 he didn't being Tyrus, Thabo, James Johnson and JamesOn Curry. I know you are rather stuborn in your pessimism, but I can tell you with certainty that probably 28 of the other 29 NBA GMs would kill for that track record of draft picks (assuming San Antonio is happy with their drafting too). This is the best post I've read on here. So essentially the Bulls didn't have much to work with in terms of draft slotting because they have been mediocre for so many years toiling around with mid to late first round picks. So I'll give it up and admit that maybe I'm harping on the Bulls draft record a little too hard. But that only strengthens my point that they've been far too conservative and too focused on toiling fruitlessly instead of tearing down the team and trying to rebuild with higher draft choices. Their trading record is nearly blank.

So they weren't actually a good team...only Rose was good and they tricked everyone to make it where they did? This is damn near gibberish. Wait...what? Don't get it twisted. Paxson did very little to make that team better in 2010. They still had the players in place before that season started and Rose covered up the huge hole of deficiencies on that team. *If this team was so great in 2011, the bulls should have gotten past the first round. With or without Rose they should have anyways. Yes, because the only issue was Rose going down. It's not like Noah and Deng were dealing with injuries, too. Noah went down at the end. I don't know about Deng, because every quote I read from him it goes along the lines of 'the injury didn't affect me because I got used to playing with it.'

Every fan of basketball has been waiting for Lebron to jump out of his playoff and finals shell for years. The talent is there, but for whatever reason he didn't do it. This year he finally did in its entirety. The Heat took an injury to Bosh at their biggest position of weakness on that team and still found a way to claw past the Celtics. If we're going to play the 'healthy' game, then the Heat if completely healthy should have beat the Celtics in 5.

So now you're going to predict my reaction to moves they could have made? I would have been fine with 48 year old Kurt Thomas getting minutes behind the gimpy Boozer in 2010.

So they weren't actually a good team...only Rose was good and they tricked everyone to make it where they did? This is damn near gibberish. Wait...what? Don't get it twisted. Paxson did very little to make that team better in 2010. They still had the players in place before that season started and Rose covered up the huge hole of deficiencies on that team. *If this team was so great in 2011, the bulls should have gotten past the first round. With or without Rose they should have anyways.

I think that they're going to have to move Noah at some point, so why not sell high and get value in return? By the time this team is ready to compete for a title again, he'll need a new deal. If Deng didn't have the gimp wrist, he'd have some value as well but maybe if he doesn't need surgery the Bulls can again sell high and clear cap space. Do you really want to give Gibson a deal if Boozer isn't yet amnestied? Has Reinsdorf's history proven that he'd be willing to sink money into the amnesty provision? Or is Paxson gonna wait to get the shaft when some team offers him ridiculous money to match? Paxson hasn't grasped the concept of selling high, he'd rather wait for deals to expire and match offer sheets. All of his moves to date reek of him wanting to keep all of HIS guys that he's drafted instead of entertaining trade value and moving pieces around. That is my problem with him, he's too conservative. Wait, how would trading Deng or Noah now be selling high? They didn't and haven't "sold high" on guys like Asik and Gibson because you refuse to recognize the obvious: this has been a top shelf team the last two seasons and those two have been an integral part of it. Moving those guys over the last two seasons wouldn't have been selling high: it would have been inexplicably placating the random rage-filled online Bulls fan who views anything less than the Finals as failure. They could have sold high and taken a position of depth and strength and moved those pieces to solidify their pathetic 2 guard situation. What a concept! I'd love to see that 2010 team without a black hole of basketball skills at the 2 guard. Lets stop ignoring the fact that the bench means far less in the playoffs then in the regular season.

They haven't done [expletive] with free agents except in 2010 put together a team that has gone 112-36 the past two seasons through numerous major injuries. So Kyle Korver, Boozer and Watson were the reason that our team made it deep into the playoffs? 2010 was more about the rising of Derrick Rose then about anything that Paxson did. Nobody expected Rose to be the MVP and dominate the way he did. The team was too reliant on one person dominating the ball and creating offense. 2011 the Bulls lost to an inferior Sixers team in the first round with or without Rose.

I think that they're going to have to move Noah at some point, so why not sell high and get value in return? By the time this team is ready to compete for a title again, he'll need a new deal. If Deng didn't have the gimp wrist, he'd have some value as well but maybe if he doesn't need surgery the Bulls can again sell high and clear cap space. Do you really want to give Gibson a deal if Boozer isn't yet amnestied? Has Reinsdorf's history proven that he'd be willing to sink money into the amnesty provision? Or is Paxson gonna wait to get the shaft when some team offers him ridiculous money to match? Paxson hasn't grasped the concept of selling high, he'd rather wait for deals to expire and match offer sheets. All of his moves to date reek of him wanting to keep all of HIS guys that he's drafted instead of entertaining trade value and moving pieces around. That is my problem with him, he's too conservative.

That they need a true #2 guard threat. But yeah, let's blow up the team because Crazy McGoo thinks they're terrible instead of just waiting until the FA crop of 2014. Ok so the answer is to wait another 2 years for the FA crop similar to the 2010 FA crop right? What gives you any reason for excitement for the 2014 crop? The Bulls haven't done [expletive] with free agents in 10 years. And you call me crazy? hahaha. Just admit the fact that perhaps the answer is to move some pieces around for the cap and for the team in the short term AND wait for the FA crop of 2014. We both want the team to win, but your answer is the polar opposite of my answer. The true answer is in the middle.

This is hilarious especially the part about the draft 2003: 1 (7) Kirk Hinrich 2004: 1 (3) Ben Gordon 2004: 1 (9) Traded essentially cash for the rights to Luol Deng 2004: 2 (8) Chris Duhon 2006: 1 (2) Tyrus Thomas (essentially) 2006: 1 (16) Thabo Sefolosha (essentially) 2007: 1 (9) Joakim Noah 2007: 2 (21) JamesOn Curry 2008: 1 (1) Derrick Rose 2008: 2 (?) Omer Asik 2009: 1 (16) James Johnson 2009: 1 (26) Taj Gibson 2011: 1 (21) Nikola Mirotic 2011: 1 (30) Jimmy Butler 2012: 1 (29) Marquis Teague I mean jeez, relative to pick in the draft, how can anyone look at that drafting history and say Pax has done a poor job drafting? Being able to get a border line All-Star in Deng for nothing. Finding a servicable backup PG in Duhon in the middle of the 2nd round. Getting a top 5 NBA Center in Noah at 9. Getting an excellent defensive guard who starts for the current WC champs at 16. Having the foresight to draft Asik in the late 2nd round and waiting for him to develop and come over to become one of the best defensive big men in the NBA? Drafting a 6th man of the year candidate in Taj Gibson 26th. Turning a situation where they didn't have room on the roster for a second 1st round pick into one of the Bulls best assets currently in Mirotic. Yes he missed big time on Tyrus, James Johnson is ok but disappointing and JamesOn Curry was nothing (but was a late 2nd round pick). Other than that, they have drafted nothing but solid players since 2003. You are looking at 1 superstar, 3 minor stars (Noah, Deng, Gordon), 3 more solid starters (Hinrich, Gibson, Thabo), and 4 solid rotation players on winning teams. I'm not putting Mirotic, Butler and Teague on this list but Butler already looks like he's earned enough trust to replace Brewer in the rotation, Mirotic looks like a potential star in the making or at least a solid starter, and most people gave the Bulls high marks for Teague. So yeah once again, you make a statement that is so far from the truth, you look completely silly. Can we somehow ban virus from the Bulls and Bears threads? Yet again, I see a lot of 'solid' mediocre players. He's done very little in terms of first round picks and you're omitting the blunder of trading Aldridge for TT among others. In almost 10 years hes drafted 1 superstar with the first pick of the draft and drafted a 1 time borderline all star in Deng who is a nice complementary piece, third option. His free agent gets (and lack of) are below average and I'm not sure he's learned to utilize the 'trade' option in the league. The Bulls also bungled the Skiles situation which leaves me curious to see what they do with Thibs.

There were and are obvious huge flaws in the construction of the roster. Nobody is saying it was a perfect team, but you don't accomplish what they have the last two seasons with "obvious huge flaws." They basically had one major flaw. What that they can't run offense through anybody except Rose? The Playoffs compound that problem 10 fold.

I find great delight in that this is your 4th or 5th comment about it.

His posts are a [expletive] clown. Hindsight is 20/20 and please stop saying IF they were healthy they had a chance. They weren't healthy and it was widely accepted that their chances were iffy on beating the Heat and purely based on LBJ 'choking.' So Rose's ACL tearing means this roster was poorly constructed? Expecting Rose to play at a MVP level year in and year out is a bit of a stretch, not to mention if he has a down year this team is done. There were and are obvious huge flaws in the construction of the roster.

His posts are a [expletive] clown. Hindsight is 20/20 and please stop saying IF they were healthy they had a chance. They weren't healthy and it was widely accepted that their chances were iffy on beating the Heat and purely based on LBJ 'choking.'

What has Paxson done to warrant anything more then a D grade? He's tried or wanted to extend every single player he has every drafted. He's done poorly in free agency and he's drafted mediocre players. Oh and he lucked into the #1 pick. Wake up, this team is in NBA hell. Their depth is now gone and we're stuck with an injured Rose/Deng/Noah for the time being, and an overpaid bum in Boozer.

So when JL3 lights up Lebron James and the deep Bench Mob plays outstanding basketball, I can gloat and parade that the Bulls are championship material?