USSoccer

Wow, that's overpaying. Prior and Pie are worth far more than just Dunn and Kearns.

I asked you a couple weeks ago how your performance is measured at your place of employment. You seemed unable to give me an answer. Why not begin by telling how performance is measured at your place of work before asking it of others, or will the SCORE not let you divulge that information? USS is the the one that says performance doesn't matter in his work. I'm sure as a 'teacher', you have certain standards and requirements which must be met. I can tell you that teachers are underpaid for the contributions they make to our society. Nonetheless, they too have reviews from superiors based on previous performances and goals for the year. CubbieRich, I never once said that performance doesn't matter where I work. I did say that I was not going to engage you in a discussion about this, because it has nothing to do with the argument. It's a false analogy. Please don't put words in my proverbial online mouth. And as fas as teachers go, there are many, many different standards by which to measure a good teacher, depending on the siutation. It isn't cut and dried.

Way to dance away from the truth about performance. Baseball-Reference, certainly a non-biased source, lists similiar pitchers and players. Here are the top 3 'similiar pitchers' for those mentioned. Roger Clemens: Tom Seaver, Greg Maddux, Steve Carlton Randy Johnson:: Jim Palmer, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller Kerry Wood: Dave Boswell, Steve Busby, Jim Nash Standards never change. 20 wins in a year, .300 BA, 100 RBI, under 2.00 ERA, etc... You can project all the numbers you want and say 'what if?'..but you have to produce on the field. Like I said, there's no way I'm going to convince you that 2003 Kerry Wood is a better pitcher than, say, 2003 Russ Ortiz, who won 20 games and a Cy Youn with a +4 ERA. There's not a whole lot of point in wasting Tim's bandwidth on this.

I like Williams too. I think he'll have a really nice, Kevin Millwood-esque career, maybe even a little better.

I asked you a couple weeks ago how your performance is measured at your place of employment. You seemed unable to give me an answer. I wasn't unable to give you an answer. I was unwilling to indulge a groundless analogy. And again, Clemens in 2005, Johnson in 2004 and Wood in 2003 are great examples of how different standards and metrics can show effectiveness of a pitcher. And your historical example of 20+ wins and 250 career wins is meaningless. History is replete with revisions and littered with the remains of what were once considered gospel truths. Look at home runs in baseball, for example. Or yards by a running back in football. Or record sales for musicians. Measurable metrics for success change with history, and change as we gain understanding of the different ways success can be calculated, depending on the field.

The Reds could move Griffey to a corner to get a full season out of him. Griffey in LF is probably a very likely move soon. Also, the Reds could turn around and deal Pie if they liked. The Marlins would have the luxury of dealing Castillo if they recieved Walker.

But Pie would trump that, since it gives them a top prospect. They also shed a part of Milton's salary, which would be good for a team like the Reds. If we eat a lot of salary, they get Mitre. If we don't eat a lot of salary, we give them Nolasco. I think the Reds would be very happy with that haul for one mistake contract, and one guy who's gone after 2007. The Marlins would take Milton to replace Burnett, and Paterson to replace Pierre. They also get Walker and have to chance to move Castillo. But the Reds need pitching so why would they want Pie unless they are going to move him or Griffey for pitching? Well, they can move Pena for pitching, or Pie. They could take some of the money saved by getting rid of Milton and sign a pitcher. They could try and deal griffey to the White Sox again. Pie gives them a big, big barganing chip, though.

But Pie would trump that, since it gives them a top prospect. They also shed a part of Milton's salary, which would be good for a team like the Reds. If we eat a lot of salary, they get Mitre. If we don't eat a lot of salary, we give them Nolasco. I think the Reds would be very happy with that haul for one mistake contract, and one guy who's gone after 2007. The Marlins would take Milton to replace Burnett, and Paterson to replace Pierre. They also get Walker and have to chance to move Castillo.

Why not? Cincinatti doesn't need Murton, and neither would Florida.

I agree and it smacks of Pie being a player in this deal. Maybe Cincinatti is the third team, and Pie (with Mitre) goes there in exchange for Dunn, Milton goes to Florida with us picking up salary, and Pierre comes here with Walker and Patterson going to Florida You just brought me down USS. As in, I just made you feel worse? I dunno, we give up Pie, Walker, Patterson and Mitre and cash and get Dunn and Pierre? Hmm...that does seem like a lot to give up, on second look. Maybe substitute cash with a low level prospect. I didn't see the Dunn part! :oops: Would you give up those 4 plus cash to get Dunn and Pierre? Would you also give Nolasco to the Reds?

I agree and it smacks of Pie being a player in this deal. Maybe Cincinatti is the third team, and Pie (with Mitre) goes there in exchange for Dunn, Milton goes to Florida with us picking up salary, and Pierre comes here with Walker and Patterson going to Florida You just brought me down USS. As in, I just made you feel worse? I dunno, we give up Pie, Walker, Patterson and Mitre and cash and get Dunn and Pierre? Hmm...that does seem like a lot to give up, on second look. Maybe substitute cash with a low level prospect.

I agree and it smacks of Pie being a player in this deal. Maybe Cincinatti is the third team, and Pie (with Mitre) goes there in exchange for Dunn, Milton goes to Florida with us picking up salary, and Pierre comes here with Walker and Patterson going to Florida

I think you could possibly talk the Reds into: Williams, Harvey, Sing and Hill for Dunn But they are going to want Pie. And I can't blame them.

I'm pretty sure he costs us a 2nd round pick.

I agree. I can't see Hendry pulling the trigger on a deal for Dunn, I don't have any specific reason. Kearns will come much cheaper. But he'll come cheaper because he's not that good.

That's too much, IMO. You're basically letting them rebuild their crappy rotation. There a scenario there where the Reds end up with: Williams Hill Novoa Guzman You're giving them 3 rotation ready arms and a setup guy. I don't think Dunn is worth allowing Cinci to go from abysmal to mediocre pitching. I'd take Guzman and Novoa off that list.

So, you are willing to have the highest paid pitcher on your team and one of the highest paid pitchers in all of MLB, be unable to win more than 14 games in a year. That's fine-you are getting what you want. I expect and demand more from the bum. He should be leading the team not sitting on the DL. Hendry was foolish to sign him to such a $$$$ contract for what he thought Wood was going to do. I heard concerns that Wood would walk if he didn't get such a contract, Hendry blinked and caved in. The good pitchers have enough sense to make changes in their mechanics if they are getting pounded, can't locate their pitches..or even when they are consistently injured and on the DL. To say Wood can't change his mechanics is even more reason to dump him. Look at Chris Carpenter(2005 Cy Young winner), he was hurt and changed his mechanics. Say what you will about wins, but there is no better single measurement for a starting pitcher. It's been that way forever in baseball and always will be. Wood can't get win when you have 100 pitches in 5 innings or when your pitching coach makes 4 trips in the 1st 5 innings. There are about 8 better, single measurments. By your logic, Roger Clemens had a crappy 2005 because he only won 13 games. Yet his ERA was below 2, and he had the lowest BAA. Is he a bum because the Astros had a terrible offense behind him? We've had this exact same arugument before, probably a dozen times. Wins are a team stat, unless you expect a pitcher to drive in runs as well. Clemens in 2005, Randy Johnson in 2004, Wood in 2003...You can be a dominant pitcher without a high win total. Wood's health is the only acceptable knock on him. When healthy, he's a really good pitcher. But, please, for the love of God, can we just drop this conversation? No none is going to convince the win guys, and the win people aren't going to convince the rest of us, so let's just moveon and argue about Neifi :P

I don't know why Cincinatti would trade all 3 to the same team. They're likely to get maximum value by dealing them individually. And as far as Kearns goes, I'd put him in the Jones/Encarnacion group of players that would be a final, fallback option. I'm not convinced he's going to be anything special based on one season with a high BABIP.

edgar renteria got $40M / 4 years. Well, as long as he doesn't put up Renteria numbers, I'm "ok" with that number. Although if we're giving $10m per to Furcal, I'd also like to see us offer it to Giles.

No, I completely agree with your assesment of Kearns. He's no guarantee to produce. Given how our window of opportunity is not as wide open as it was 2 years ago, I'd rather not take on a reclamation project. I'd rather have close to guaranteed production. As would I. How old is Kearns? He'll be 26 in May.

No, I completely agree with your assesment of Kearns. He's no guarantee to produce. Given how our window of opportunity is not as wide open as it was 2 years ago, I'd rather not take on a reclamation project. I'd rather have close to guaranteed production.

Yeah, he did say speaks. Then he blew Angel Hernandez a kiss.

Lewis had a totally craptacular season. He's worth about as much as I am in a trade. I know, I just don't want to give anyone else good. hahaha, gotcha!

Lewis had a totally craptacular season. He's worth about as much as I am in a trade.

I'm not down on Pierre; I just don't think he's worth more than Patterson, Mitre and a Rule 5 guy.