Blueheart05

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April. No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it. Maddux was/is old, and questioning his contract is far from irrational. On the other hand, you are picking apart Zambrano, even when he's done well. By that definition every pitcher in the league is their own worst enemy consistently by failing to put failure behind them, even if they don't actually get hurt because of it. I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th. And in his 3 good outings, the ones you have refused to acknowledge and claim he's still melting down in, he's averaged 6.33 innings per start, to go with his 1.80 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, and 9.47 K/9. And again, what you're talking about isn't exclusive to Z, every pitcher ever has it happen to them. I don't need to acknowledge them. His body of work speaks for itself. He has not been ace-like. I can turn the tables and say, why are you only looking at those 3 starts when overall he's been horrible? There's no doubt that he's been more bad than good this year. He's not my child; I don't need to say something positive to counterbalance the bad. In fact, those number are so good that it just magnifies how HORRIBLE he has been in his other starts.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time. Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic. Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective. Can't you see this? No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown. I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are. I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different... Nope, you still don't understand. No one minds the above statement. People had issues with the way you phrased your INITIAL criticism, not that there was criticism itself. Thats' fine. This is a messageboard, we're not all here to agree. You are free to describe him in the most glowing or PC terms if you choose (or not). Fair enough. And if you continue using inaccurate hyperbole I will continue to discuss that said hyperbole. What is or isn't accurate is subjective.

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April. No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it. Maddux was/is old, and questioning his contract is far from irrational. On the other hand, you are picking apart Zambrano, even when he's done well. By that definition every pitcher in the league is their own worst enemy consistently by failing to put failure behind them, even if they don't actually get hurt because of it. I disagree. The lapses have cost him because it prevents him from pitching later into games and perhaps, giving the offense time to score so he can qualify for a win. Going into this game, he pitched 29.2 innings over 5 games. That's not even averaging 6 inning a start. Today he didn't record an out in the 5th.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time. Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic. Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective. Can't you see this? No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown. I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are. I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different... Nope, you still don't understand. No one minds the above statement. People had issues with the way you phrased your INITIAL criticism, not that there was criticism itself. Thats' fine. This is a messageboard, we're not all here to agree. You are free to describe him in the most glowing or PC terms if you choose (or not).

I don't recall many people saying that Maddux was melting down every game, or hadn't done anything to deserve praise last April. No, they said he was old and a waste of money (not to mention pitching batting practice). Again, Zambrano has had at least one inning in every game this year where he's been his own worst enemy. You may not like my "melt down" term but that's what I call it.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time. Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic. Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective. Can't you see this? No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown. I guess we'll just disagree on the definition of the words hyperbolic, exaggeration, fair and objective are. I guess we will have to but I will say that his numbers certainly aren't representative of anyone who's pitched well overall. Serena also brought up a good point about Maddux. Few people were defending him last April with his 3 QS and inflated ERA. For some reason, this is different...

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time. Your initial comments were about as FAR from objective as you can get. They were emotional and hyperbolic. Your clarification comments (Z not pitching up to his standards, Z losing control/being inconsistent) are fair and objective. Can't you see this? No, because my comments were obviously in relation to his previous performances. I wouldn't be nearly as upset if I didn't have a high bar for the guy. He's a much better pitcher than he's shown.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. What pitchers don't struggle a few times in a game? The only time I see that are those truly dominant no-hitter/few-hit, shutout outings. Even Maddux has this year. And he argues with himself when things are going well. Zambrano is strange. Seems a bit over the top - there is a lot of ammo already out there to criticize Z on. I don't disagree that most pitchers get upset with themselves when they make a mistake. The difference this year is Z hasn't regained his composure for a batter or two. Sometimes it's too late when he does. I get the feeling that he needs to make adjustments. He's been pitching in the mid to high 90s lately and he seems most effective in the lower 90s when his balls sink. I think the root to a lot of his frustration has been his pitches not being executed the way he's used to.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? I think Bleuheart, like me, really don't like the way Zambrano has pitched this year. That's all it is.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far. You really don't like Zambrano, do you? That's ridiculous. I love Zambrano's game but he hasn't been on it. He's walking too many batters and not getting groundball outs. Why do you have to question whether I like the guy just because I'm not afraid to criticize him? It's like saying you can't like someone and be objective at the same time.

After seeing his stats after today's performance, as a whole he hasn't been good. You're right. But I still take issue with your statement that he hasn't done anything all year to deserve praise. Because he has. So has Glendon Rusch. He pitched well in Pittsburgh and he pitched well for almost 5 innings in STL. Overall, both have not pitched well... Oh yeah, I wasn't exaggerating. If you look back at every game Zambrano has pitched this year, he has melted down (for lack of a better phrase) in at least one inning. Granted, a couple of times he was able to get out of trouble with minimal damage but giving up home runs and then walking the next two batters, arguing with himself or others, and having no general control does not equal a good year thus far.

When you say "Zamnbrano(sic) has been crap all year" and "Being the ace also means you don't melt down just about every game", you're going to get called out on it, because Z hasn't been crap all year nor has he melted down just about every game. There's a very real difference between poor performance and inconsistent performance. Say Z hasn't pitched like an "ace"(which is unnecessarily arbitrary anyway, but I digress), fine, but when you exaggerate further upon that to paint him as someone who hasn't done a positive thing all year when he clearly has people are going to catch you. Yes, he has had at least one inning in every game this season where he's lost control.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. Haha, you can't be serious. Haha/ What has he done this year? He hasn't been as good as last year, obviously, but he's still had a quality start in half of his outtings (3 of 6 counting today). He hasn't been near as bad as you're making him out to be. are those numbers acceptable for an ace though? I think that's the point Blueheart is trying to make. The question was "what has Zambrano done to earn praise?" Well, he's had three solid outtings. He hasn't been a bad pitcher this year. Worse than expected, but he hasn't pitched poorly as a whole. As a whole he has pitched poorly. Between the walks and allowing almost 4 runs a game, I'd say it hasn't been good. Then I guess we just have different definitions of poorly. I don't consider an ERA slightly under four to be poor. Fine, even if he was on the edge coming into today's game. Look at his numbers now and tell me he's been good.

No question!

I agree.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. Haha, you can't be serious. Haha/ What has he done this year? He hasn't been as good as last year, obviously, but he's still had a quality start in half of his outtings (3 of 6 counting today). He hasn't been near as bad as you're making him out to be. are those numbers acceptable for an ace though? I think that's the point Blueheart is trying to make. The question was "what has Zambrano done to earn praise?" Well, he's had three solid outtings. He hasn't been a bad pitcher this year. Worse than expected, but he hasn't pitched poorly as a whole. As a whole he has pitched poorly. Between the walks and allowing almost 4 runs a game, I'd say it hasn't been good.

04/03 - 04/29 IP H R ER BB K HR PC BB/9 K/9 HR/9 WHIP ERA Zambrano 29.7 25 16 13 20 33 5 545 6.07 10.01 1.52 1.52 3.94 Are these numbers, as a whole, suppose to be impressive? He's allowing almost 4 runs a games coming into today and walking too many batters. These are not numbers representative of an ace.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. Haha, you can't be serious. Haha/ What has he done this year? He hasn't been as good as last year, obviously, but he's still had a quality start in half of his outtings (3 of 6 counting today). He hasn't been near as bad as you're making him out to be. Maybe not for a 3rd starter.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. Coming into today's game, Z has struggled at his standards. And yet he had above league-average stats in ERA (3.94) and BAA (.227) and below-average in WHIP (1.52, stemming from his high walk-rate). And of course, he's been the Cubs best pitcher the last 3 years and one of the best in all of baseball. This year he has not been good. 1.52 WHIP is not good for someone who's an ace. His numbers have been sub par. I have no problem with people willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because of his previous success, but at the same time, please don't act like he's pitched well this year.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. That's fine, but your rhetoric has been imflammatory at the least regarding Z. I'm just letting you know we get it. And it's quite exaggerated. Where have I exaggerated anything?

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about. Haha, you can't be serious. Haha/ What has he done this year?

I think you're riding me for no reason. Please call it as it is. The problem today was bad pitching (just as it was yesterday). No one had a problem calling out Rusch but some people get testy when Zambrano's flaws are mentioned.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. We get it. You're anti-Z this year. I'm pro good pitcher. I'm not going to stand up for the guy blindly. What has he done to earn praise? Look at his numbers (not just this game but before hand). His ERA, WHIP, etc. He still has time to make adjustments but there's been little to get excited about.

Maybe he is tired of trying to settle Z down Yeah, Z needs to learn how to calm himself down much better. Larry shouldn't have to come out every single time Z gets into a jam. Sometimes is okay, but not all the time. Part of being an ace is learning how to control your emotions. Exactly! Being the ace also means you don't melt down just about every game.

It's not the Brewers it's the pitching. I know, the Brewers are like not even good... Whatever.