OleMissCub

Indeed it is not the best measure of the skill or contribution that a player makes, I think most intelligent people these days realize that, however it is not a crime to talk about it as a stand alone stat. Batting average was brought up, so that is what we are discussing.

Personally, I never considered Bonds to be a great average hitter (do some people?). A .298 average isn't hugely impressive for an all time great. Among those considered to be all time greats (going with nicknames for the hell of it): The Georgia Peach: .366 Rajah: .358 Shoeless Joe: .355 Spoke: .344 The Splendid Splinter: .344 The Colossus of Clout: .342 The Iron Horse: .340 Nap: .338 Cocky: .333 Stan the Man: .330 The Flying Dutchman: .327 Mr. Double X: .325 The Yankee Clipper: .324 Those of Bonds' generation: Fat Tony: .338 Fat Albert: .332 Ichiro: .330 Todd "my road splits are mediocre" Helton: .328 Vlad: .328 "Pitt the Elder!": .327 Man-Ram: .312

Also we can't forget the two years he lost during the Korean War as well, and while they might not have occurred during his prime, he was still unbelievable during those years. His OPS+ in the years immediately preceding and following his two missed Korean War seasons were 165 and 201, respectively. 14.8 AB's per HR: http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/260/willbatik3.gif . . . . . . 12.8 AB's per HR: http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/888/barrybondscasecouldhingaj0.jpg

I think the heel clicking rubbed some fellow players the wrong way and there are some reports that he wasn't very pleasant to the media. This is a great Santo article from Bill James' book Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame?

Top 10 Win Shares of the 1960's: Hank Aaron - 340 Willie Mays - 337 Frank Robinson - 307 Roberto Clemente - 260 Harmon Killebrew - 257 Ron Santo - 247 Mickey Mantle - 247 Willie McCovey - 237 Brooks Robinson - 233 Carl Yastrzemski - 230 ...I wonder what all of those men have in common that Ron doesn't? http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1695/ronnieswing2ue0.gif

Hey Jim, I could probably ground out to shortstop too...how about paying me 13 million?

What a dumbass. Statistician Bill Burgess has his most impressive pitching peaks listed as: Pedro Martinez 1997-2003, 215 ERA+ Walter Johnson 1910-1914, 204 ERA+ Roger Clemens 1986-1992, 164 ERA+ Sandy Koufax 1961-1966, 161 ERA+ Ed Walsh 1907-1912, 160 ERA+

http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080625&content_id=3001197&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det This reminds me of some of these weird baseball injuries: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Park/1138/strangeinjuries.html And of course who can forget John Smoltz burning himself while trying to iron a shirt that he was wearing and also Zumaya's Guitar Hero incident. Can't forget also the Sosa sneeze and Wood's hot tub.

Also from The Historical Abstract, Bill James' "All-Decade" teams according to Win Shares: 1900-1909 C: Roger Breshnahan 1B: Frank Chance 2B: Napoleon Lajoie 3B: Jimmy Collins SS: Honus Wagner LF: Mike Donlin CF: Ty Cobb RF: Sam Crawford RH: Christy Mathewson RH: Cy Young RH: Three Finger Brown 1910-1919 C: Chief Meyers 1B: Ed Konetchy 2B: Eddie Collins 3B: Home Run Baker SS: Honus Wagner LF: Joe Jackson CF: Tris Speaker RF: Ty Cobb RH: Walter Johnson RH: Grover Cleveland Alexander RH: Christy Mathewson LH: Hippo Vaughn 1920-1929 C: Gabby Hartnett 1B: Lou Gehrig 2B: Rogers Hornsby 3B: Pie Traynor SS: Joe Sewell LF: Harry Heilmann CF: Al Simmons RF: Babe Ruth RH: Dazzy Vance RH: Grover Cleveland Alexander RH: Burleigh Grimes LH: Herb Pennock 1930-1939 C: Bill Dickey 1B: Lou Gehrig 2B: Charlie Gehringer 3B: Stan Hack SS: Arky Vaughan LF: Paul Waner CF: Joe Dimaggio RF: Mel Ott RH: Dizzy Dean RH: Red Ruffing LH: Carl Hubbell LH: Lefty Grove 1940-1949 C: Walter Cooper 1B: Johnny Mize 2B: Joe Gordon 3B: Bob Elliot SS: Lou Boudreau LF: Stan Musial CF: Joe DiMaggio RF: Ted Williams RH: Bob Feller LH: Hal Newhouser RH: Mort Cooper RH Spud Chandler 1950-1959 C: Yogi Berra 1B: Stan Musial 2B: Jackie Robinson 3B: Eddie Mathews SS: Ernie Banks LF: Ted Williams CF: Willie Mays RF: Mickey Mantle RH: Robin Roberts RH: Early Wynn LH: Warren Sphan LH: Whitey Ford RP: Ellis Kinder 1960-1969 C: Bill Freehan 1B: Willie McCovey 2B: Pete Rose 3B: Ron Santo SS: Maury Wills LF: Frank Robinson CF: Willie Mays RF: Hank Aaron RH: Juan Marichal RH: Bob Gibson LH: Whitey Ford LH: Sandy Koufax RP: Hoyt Wilhelm 1970-1979 C: Johnny Bench 1B: Rod Carew 2B: Joe Morgan 3B: Mike Schmidt SS: Dave Concepcion LF: Bobby Bonds CF: Bobby Murcer RF: Reggie Jackson U: Pete Rose RH: Jim Palmer RH: Tom Seaver RH: Gaylord Perry LH: Steve Carlton RP: Rollie Fingers 1980-1989 C: Gary Carter 1B: Eddie Murray 2B: Ryne Sandberg 3B: Mike Schmidt SS: Cal Ripken LF: Rickey Henderson CF: Robin Yount RF: Dale Murphy RH: Dave Stieb RH: Jack Morris RH: Bert Blyleven LH: Fernando Valenzuela RH: Roger Clemens RP: Dan Quisenberry 1990-1999 C: Mike Piazza 1B: Frank Thomas 2B: Craig Biggio 3B: Robin Ventura SS: Barry larkin LF: Barry Bonds CF: Ken Griffey Jr. RF: Albert Belle RH: Roger Clemens RH: Greg Maddux RH: Kevin Brown LH: Randy Johnson LH: Tom Glavine RP: John Wetteland The 1950's squad against the 1990's squad would be absolutely epic

I know as much about Basketball as I do about quantum physics....could someone explain to me why people were booing the Italian?

agreed, I love the three piece Do you have any? I've got two of them, gray and black. I always wore them when I did Moot Court stuff...made me feel like Gregory Peck.

Some of Bill James' lists (all according to Win Shares): An all-star team of the best young players ever (value up to age 23) C- Johnny Bench 1B - Jimmie Foxx 2B - Rogers Hornsby 3B - Eddie Mathews SS - Arky Vaughan OF - Mickey Mantle OF - Ty Cobb OF - Mel Ott SP - Babe Ruth SP - Amos Rusie SP - Christy Mathewson SP - Monte Ward The top five shortstops of all time, rated as offensive players, are: 1. Honus Wagner 2. Robin Yount 3. Arky Vaughan 4. George Davis 5. Cal Ripken The top five shortstops, rated as defensive players, are: 1. Honus Wagner 2. Ozzie Smith 3. Bill Dahlen 4. Rabbit Maranville 5. Pee Wee Reese Five weakest players to win MVP award, listed by career Win Shares: 1. Zoilo Versalles, 1965 AL 2. Hank Sauer, 1952 NL 3. George Bell, 1987 AL 4. Kevin Mitchell, 1989 NL 5. Marty Marion, 1945 NL Greatest players in history, based on Win Shares between ages 30 and 39, not including pitchers: 1. Honus Wagner 2. Babe Ruth 3. Willie Mays 4. Hank Aaron 5. Pete Rose 6. Mike Schmidt 7. Ty Cobb 8. Tris Speaker 9. Joe Morgan 10. Stan Musial Ten GOOD things to say about Albert Belle: 10. So far as we know, he's never killed anyone. 9. He is handsome, and built like a God. 8. He played every game. 7. He has never appeared on the Jerry Springer Show. 6. He was an underrated base runner. 5. He hasn't been arrested in several years. 4. He is very bright. 3. He works hard. 2. He has never spoken favorably about Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or any other foreign madman. 1. The man could hit. The All-Tall team, composed of the tallest player rated among the top 25 at each position: C - Lance Parrish 1B - Mark McGwire 2B - Ryne Sandberg 3B - Mike Schmidt SS -Cal Ripken LF - Frank Howard CF - Dale Murphy RF - Dave Winfield Best "last seasons" by players at any position, including players banned from baseball: 1. Joe Jackson 2. Sandy Koufax 3. Happy Felsch 4. Mickey Mantle 5. Bill Joyce 6. Eddie Cicotte 7. Buck Weaver 8. Jesse Burkett 9. Ted Williams 10. Kirby Puckett four Black Sox players on the list...must have been a hell of a team. Best players, according to career Win Shares, to have never won an MVP Award: 1. Mel Ott 2. Eddie Mathews 3. Al Kaline 4. Eddie Murray 5. Dave Winfield 6. Paul Molitor 7. Warren Spahn 8. Wade Boggs 9. Tom Seaver 10. Tony Gwynn Lowest ranked Hall of Famers by position: C- Ray Schalk 1B - George Kelly 2B - Bid McPhee 3B - Freddy Lindstrom SS -Travis Jackson LF -Chick Hafey CF -Lloyd Waner RF -Tommy McCarthy Best pitcher's seasons of all time, by decade: Jack Chesbro, 1904 Walter Johnson, 1913 Dolf Luque, 1923 Lefty Grove, 1931 Dizzy Trout, 1944 Robin Roberts, 1953 Bob Gibson, 1968 Steve Carlton, 1972 Dwight Gooden, 1985 Roger Clemens, 1997 Ten greatest players, according to career Win Shares: 1. Babe Ruth 2. Ty Cobb 3. Honus Wagner 4. Henry Aaron 5. Willie Mays 6. Cy Young 7. Tris Speaker 8. Stan Musial 9. Eddie Collins 10. Mickey Mantle

I want Mayo's suit

I think the only thing Rose said that wasn't a sports cliche was "um".

An interesting passage about Ted Williams from Bill James' Historical Abstract (2000).

PLAY BALL!! http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh153/OleMissCub17/hough.jpg

A-Rod uses an Ash bat. I think that's good enough for me. Get rid of the maple. I'm sick of seeing bats explode five times a game.

The scene from Ken Burns' Baseball where he profiles Rube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAgLr_CKuco "Rube Waddell may have been the strangest man ever to play in the big leagues. He possessed a fastball fearsome enough and a curve wicked enough to lead the AL in strikeouts for 6 straight years, and to outpitch Cy Young for 20 innings. But it was his personality that most people would remember. He poured ice water on his arm before starts because, he said, "I don't want to burn up the catcher's glove." And when he won a game he sometimes turned cartwheels on the mound. He drank too much, and he couldn't quite remember how many women he'd married. In the offseasons he wrestled alligators and toured in a vaudeville production called "The Stain of Guilt". On the field his attention seemed to wander, opponents could break his concentration by holding up puppies or shiny objects. He loved fires, and when a fire engine would roar by, he had to be restrained from leaving the game to chase the fire."

that 0.75 k/9 ratio must have scared the crap out of hitters. Must have sucked to have been a pitcher back when fouls didn't count as strikes. It's hard for me to take any stats seriously before the turn of the century.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/deando01.shtml Dory Dean....this poor bastard actually went 4-26 as a starting pitcher in a single season. Eat your heart out, Zito.

Actually Monroe is well known for having a large population of Mariners fans.

I just had a thought that nearly made me shoot some gin out of my nose. I pictured Lou Gehrig wearing those AC Slater jeans.

No kidding. His stats that year will make you scratch your head.... 1-9, 35 saves, 7.11 ERA, 69 ERA+, 1.942 WHIP Imagine having a closer with a WHIP near 2?

WHOAAA

Mel Rojas for me