Barrett's Play

[brfahey]

This topic has been discussed previously (at least by me), but here goes. Barrett gives an indication every so often that he is not the most instinctual or shall we say smartest baseball player in the world. Botches a rundown last night ina very tight game situation. Directly cost us a game in Philly under similar circumstances. He seems to brainlock at the worst times. This is to say nothing of his oft atrocious receiving skills, on display agin last night when he just failed to catch a pitch which about two feet off the ground.

 

I know he has good looking offensive numbers and does have pop in his bat from time to time. But, again, he seems to tighten up in game situations. See previous discussion of defensive/rundown lapses. And last night, I believe Burnitz walked to load the bases with two outs in the ninth. Barrett saw two itches and swung at them both. Not trying to generalize from the one at-bat but to me he looked like he was ready to jump out of his skin up there. And, again, I am aware that he has a decent average with the bases loaded, but as I pointed out in an earlier thread a review of the actual at-bats shows the hits coming when the Cubs are already well ahead in games and strike outs and popups coming when the Cubs are tied or trailing.

 

Given his defensive "skills" why not explore a position switch for this guy.

[erik316wttn]

This topic has been discussed previously (at least by me), but here goes. Barrett gives an indication every so often that he is not the most instinctual or shall we say smartest baseball player in the world. Botches a rundown last night ina very tight game situation. Directly cost us a game in Philly under similar circumstances. He seems to brainlock at the worst times. This is to say nothing of his oft atrocious receiving skills, on display agin last night when he just failed to catch a pitch which about two feet off the ground.

 

I know he has good looking offensive numbers and does have pop in his bat from time to time. But, again, he seems to tighten up in game situations. See previous discussion of defensive/rundown lapses. And last night, I believe Burnitz walked to load the bases with two outs in the ninth. Barrett saw two itches and swung at them both. Not trying to generalize from the one at-bat but to me he looked like he was ready to jump out of his skin up there. And, again, I am aware that he has a decent average with the bases loaded, but as I pointed out in an earlier thread a review of the actual at-bats shows the hits coming when the Cubs are already well ahead in games and strike outs and popups coming when the Cubs are tied or trailing.

 

Given his defensive "skills" why not explore a position switch for this guy.

 

A) The only place we could put him is the outfield. Catchers, not being the fastest guys on the team, sometimes have trouble in the OF catching up to balls.

 

B) Tell me where you're going to find a better offensive catcher that is available and cheap as Barrett.

 

C) Work on his D next spring training.

[brfahey]

This topic has been discussed previously (at least by me), but here goes. Barrett gives an indication every so often that he is not the most instinctual or shall we say smartest baseball player in the world. Botches a rundown last night ina very tight game situation. Directly cost us a game in Philly under similar circumstances. He seems to brainlock at the worst times. This is to say nothing of his oft atrocious receiving skills, on display agin last night when he just failed to catch a pitch which about two feet off the ground.

 

I know he has good looking offensive numbers and does have pop in his bat from time to time. But, again, he seems to tighten up in game situations. See previous discussion of defensive/rundown lapses. And last night, I believe Burnitz walked to load the bases with two outs in the ninth. Barrett saw two itches and swung at them both. Not trying to generalize from the one at-bat but to me he looked like he was ready to jump out of his skin up there. And, again, I am aware that he has a decent average with the bases loaded, but as I pointed out in an earlier thread a review of the actual at-bats shows the hits coming when the Cubs are already well ahead in games and strike outs and popups coming when the Cubs are tied or trailing.

 

Given his defensive "skills" why not explore a position switch for this guy.

 

A) The only place we could put him is the outfield. Catchers, not being the fastest guys on the team, sometimes have trouble in the OF catching up to balls.

 

B) Tell me where you're going to find a better offensive catcher that is available and cheap as Barrett.

 

C) Work on his D next spring training.

 

Your B) ignores the argument. Catching is a crucial defensive position. The cathcer should be the savviest guy on the field. Barrett ain't never going to be that guy. His offense is OK, at times. No argument.

 

With regard to C) haven't they been working on his D very year? And didn't Montreal try him at third after he came up as a catcher (I think).

 

As to A), the ourfield is where you hide your butchers.

[AAApittsburgh]

His O more than makes up for his D.

[brfahey]

His O more than makes up for his D.

 

Sorry but I disagree. It's not like this guy is Barry Bonds or something. he's got what, 55 RBIs? His defense is well below average.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This year has been Barrett's worst defensively(90 rate compared to 97 and 98 in the previous two seasons). I don't think he'll be as bad next year, and this year has cemented his place among the elite offensive catchers in the game. As long as this year looks like a fluke defensively, which it does based on his lased 285 games or so at catcher, then I'll gladly take a catcher who is slightly below average defensively and top of the line offensively.

[imb]

He has 55 RBI's because he's hit 8th so much.

 

His Offense minus his Defense is still really, really good.

[Careless]

His O more than makes up for his D.

 

Sorry but I disagree. It's not like this guy is Barry Bonds or something. he's got what, 55 RBIs? His defense is well below average.

He's 3nd in the freaking majors (1st in the NL) in OPS among catchers with more than 200 ABs!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not the offense of a guy who is "ok, at times"

[brfahey]

His O more than makes up for his D.

 

Sorry but I disagree. It's not like this guy is Barry Bonds or something. he's got what, 55 RBIs? His defense is well below average.

He's 3nd in the freaking majors (1st in the NL) in OPS among catchers with more than 200 ABs!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not the offense of a guy who is "ok, at times"

 

OK. But let me make this prediction, this team will never make the playoffs with Barrett as its principal catcher. I know there are host of reasons why teams don't do well and I am not placing the lion's share of the blame on him. I just think he exemplifies the type of player we have had in the past two years who, for whatever reason, just don't do the things necessary to win or conversely, make the mistakes which keep you from winning. Stats look good but we don't win. Could make similar statement about walker.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

The problem is that when you move him his value gets decreased significantly. He is one of the best hitting catchers in the game but if you move him to 3rd (we already have a pretty good one of those) or one of the corner outfield spots he is slightly below average offensively. Then you add on the fact that he would probably be below average on the field as well. One thing I can tell you for sure is that I would rather have him in the starting lineup every day over Hank White.

[dalgreen]

I still wonder why some of the people who advocate trading Lee because his trade value is high don't say the same thing about Barrett. His offfensive numbers are only good on this team because this team's offense is so bad. If we had big time OPS guys in the outfield his offensive numbers wouldn't be as crucial. If you could generate the same kind of offensive numbers from the outfield that Barrett produces, I would rather have a great defensive catcher and give up on the offensive. After all the Cardinals and Astros seem to have done okay with Matheny and Ausmus as their catchers over the years.

[biittner77]

Given his defensive "skills" why not explore a position switch for this guy.

 

His stats, while very good- great for a catcher are very ordinary for a LF. The Expos tried him at 3rd and he was horrible. His defensive woes carried over to his offense.

 

If and when Pie is ready and contributing the Cubs could afford to carry a light hitting catcher. With Patterson struggling, Hairston being mediocre at best and no other in house options, the Cubs need solid offense from the catcher position.

[brfahey]

The problem is that when you move him his value gets decreased significantly. He is one of the best hitting catchers in the game but if you move him to 3rd (we already have a pretty good one of those) or one of the corner outfield spots he is slightly below average offensively. Then you add on the fact that he would probably be below average on the field as well. One thing I can tell you for sure is that I would rather have him in the starting lineup every day over Hank White.

 

I don't want Blanco being the everyday catcher either. As to moving Barrett to the outfield, he already is below average defensively at his position (catcher). My point is I would rather have a below average defensive outfielder than catcher. As to his offense as an outfielder I agree that he might be considered less than average. maybe a platoon (with Burnitz?). The overriding point is that the Cubs have to get better defensively and catcher is a good place to start.

[dalgreen]

The problem is that when you move him his value gets decreased significantly. He is one of the best hitting catchers in the game but if you move him to 3rd (we already have a pretty good one of those) or one of the corner outfield spots he is slightly below average offensively. Then you add on the fact that he would probably be below average on the field as well. One thing I can tell you for sure is that I would rather have him in the starting lineup every day over Hank White.

 

I don't want Blanco being the everyday catcher either. As to moving Barrett to the outfield, he already is below average defensively at his position (catcher). My point is I would rather have a below average defensive outfielder than catcher. As to his offense as an outfielder I agree that he might be considered less than average. maybe a platoon (with Burnitz?). The overriding point is that the Cubs have to get better defensively and catcher is a good place to start.

 

I don't want to come off as disliking Barrett because I do like him, but I have never thought of him as being a "smart" baseball player. If you move him to another position, I could easily see him taking his glove to the plate and having a bad offensive year.

[Backtobanks]

I still wonder why some of the people who advocate trading Lee because his trade value is high don't say the same thing about Barrett. His offfensive numbers are only good on this team because this team's offense is so bad. If we had big time OPS guys in the outfield his offensive numbers wouldn't be as crucial. If you could generate the same kind of offensive numbers from the outfield that Barrett produces, I would rather have a great defensive catcher and give up on the offensive. After all the Cardinals and Astros seem to have done okay with Matheny and Ausmus as their catchers over the years.

 

When you have a lineup like the Cards, you can afford to have a weak hitting catcher.

[goonys evil twin]

OK. But let me make this prediction, this team will never make the playoffs with Barrett as its principal catcher. I know there are host of reasons why teams don't do well and I am not placing the lion's share of the blame on him. I just think he exemplifies the type of player we have had in the past two years who, for whatever reason, just don't do the things necessary to win or conversely, make the mistakes which keep you from winning. Stats look good but we don't win. Could make similar statement about walker.

 

He's no worse than Posada defensively. Jorge was routinely roasted in the NY papers for his "unsavvy" play behind the plate. He'd make stupid decisions, fail to block blockable pitches, and occasionally lose games.

 

No team fails to make the playoffs because of one bad defensive player, unless that player is just extraordinarily awful. MB is not that bad defensively. You have to make choices when building a team. There are very few great defenders who hit a ton, ARod, Tejada, Lee and Pujols come to mind. If you got a great lineup, you can sacrifice some O in certain spots to insert the D. However, the Cubs do not have a great lineup, and they need Barrett's O. If they find two stud corner OF, a capable CF and somebody other than Neifi at short, then I'm all for dealing MB. But until they do that, they must find a way to get by with him in the lineup. And they can.

[dalgreen]

I still wonder why some of the people who advocate trading Lee because his trade value is high don't say the same thing about Barrett. His offfensive numbers are only good on this team because this team's offense is so bad. If we had big time OPS guys in the outfield his offensive numbers wouldn't be as crucial. If you could generate the same kind of offensive numbers from the outfield that Barrett produces, I would rather have a great defensive catcher and give up on the offensive. After all the Cardinals and Astros seem to have done okay with Matheny and Ausmus as their catchers over the years.

 

When you have a lineup like the Cards, you can afford to have a weak hitting catcher.

 

That's my point. The fact that he's one of the best offensive catchers in the league would be a moot point if we can pick up a couple of high OPS outfielders.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I still wonder why some of the people who advocate trading Lee because his trade value is high don't say the same thing about Barrett. His offfensive numbers are only good on this team because this team's offense is so bad. If we had big time OPS guys in the outfield his offensive numbers wouldn't be as crucial. If you could generate the same kind of offensive numbers from the outfield that Barrett produces, I would rather have a great defensive catcher and give up on the offensive. After all the Cardinals and Astros seem to have done okay with Matheny and Ausmus as their catchers over the years.

 

Lee is in all likelihood playing above the level he will play at in the future, which would make his value the highest. Barrett has been consistent at the plate the last two years, and if anything, his defense is likely to improve based on his career. If Barrett had a .750 OPS last year and a .900 OPS this year, then it might be a better comparison.

[erik316wttn]

I still wonder why some of the people who advocate trading Lee because his trade value is high don't say the same thing about Barrett. His offfensive numbers are only good on this team because this team's offense is so bad. If we had big time OPS guys in the outfield his offensive numbers wouldn't be as crucial. If you could generate the same kind of offensive numbers from the outfield that Barrett produces, I would rather have a great defensive catcher and give up on the offensive. After all the Cardinals and Astros seem to have done okay with Matheny and Ausmus as their catchers over the years.

 

I think it makes sense that people don't want to trade Barrett...

 

Trading Lee now (even though I'd be against it) wouldn't be as big of a blow, becuase you can almost always find a big bat at 1B. How many other catchers in the game today can match Barretts offense? Maybe a handful.

 

Blanco is a good backup catcher. If you have a game where you really need D at the catcher position, Blanco is the guy you want. But with the game on the line, who do you want at the plate?

 

Today's "smart" baseball fan tends to overvalue defense, IMO, even sometimes to the point of sacrificing offense.

 

D is important, yes, but not so important that you sub an Alex Gonzalez in for a Nomar (different position, I know, but you get my point).

Edited September 14, 2005 by erik316wttn

[burnt out cubbie fan]

The problem is that when you move him his value gets decreased significantly. He is one of the best hitting catchers in the game but if you move him to 3rd (we already have a pretty good one of those) or one of the corner outfield spots he is slightly below average offensively. Then you add on the fact that he would probably be below average on the field as well. One thing I can tell you for sure is that I would rather have him in the starting lineup every day over Hank White.

 

I don't want Blanco being the everyday catcher either. As to moving Barrett to the outfield, he already is below average defensively at his position (catcher). My point is I would rather have a below average defensive outfielder than catcher. As to his offense as an outfielder I agree that he might be considered less than average. maybe a platoon (with Burnitz?). The overriding point is that the Cubs have to get better defensively and catcher is a good place to start.

First of all, we better have a better player in right next year than Burnitz. Secondly, it seems pretty silly to me to move one of the best offensive catchers in the league to a position that he barely if ever played in his professional career so he can be in a platoon. I know that Michael has above average speed for a catcher but he would have horrible range in the outfield and I think he would be a butcher out there.

[brfahey]

OK. But let me make this prediction, this team will never make the playoffs with Barrett as its principal catcher. I know there are host of reasons why teams don't do well and I am not placing the lion's share of the blame on him. I just think he exemplifies the type of player we have had in the past two years who, for whatever reason, just don't do the things necessary to win or conversely, make the mistakes which keep you from winning. Stats look good but we don't win. Could make similar statement about walker.

 

He's no worse than Posada defensively. Jorge was routinely roasted in the NY papers for his "unsavvy" play behind the plate. He'd make stupid decisions, fail to block blockable pitches, and occasionally lose games.

 

No team fails to make the playoffs because of one bad defensive player, unless that player is just extraordinarily awful. MB is not that bad defensively. You have to make choices when building a team. There are very few great defenders who hit a ton, ARod, Tejada, Lee and Pujols come to mind. If you got a great lineup, you can sacrifice some O in certain spots to insert the D. However, the Cubs do not have a great lineup, and they need Barrett's O. If they find two stud corner OF, a capable CF and somebody other than Neifi at short, then I'm all for dealing MB. But until they do that, they must find a way to get by with him in the lineup. And they can.

 

Just to be clear: I didn't say Barrett's bad defense is the only reason the Cubs won't make postseason. Rather, I think he represents the type of player who looks godd statistically and whom fans like but is not often on a winning team. Subpar defense, not many baseball smarts. I just don't think he's a winning player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

OK. But let me make this prediction, this team will never make the playoffs with Barrett as its principal catcher. I know there are host of reasons why teams don't do well and I am not placing the lion's share of the blame on him. I just think he exemplifies the type of player we have had in the past two years who, for whatever reason, just don't do the things necessary to win or conversely, make the mistakes which keep you from winning. Stats look good but we don't win. Could make similar statement about walker.

 

He's no worse than Posada defensively. Jorge was routinely roasted in the NY papers for his "unsavvy" play behind the plate. He'd make stupid decisions, fail to block blockable pitches, and occasionally lose games.

 

No team fails to make the playoffs because of one bad defensive player, unless that player is just extraordinarily awful. MB is not that bad defensively. You have to make choices when building a team. There are very few great defenders who hit a ton, ARod, Tejada, Lee and Pujols come to mind. If you got a great lineup, you can sacrifice some O in certain spots to insert the D. However, the Cubs do not have a great lineup, and they need Barrett's O. If they find two stud corner OF, a capable CF and somebody other than Neifi at short, then I'm all for dealing MB. But until they do that, they must find a way to get by with him in the lineup. And they can.

 

I agree with the point you're making, but Posada has been significantly better defensively than Barrett over his career. This is the first year Posada's been below average defensively(Rate below 100) since 1999.

[dalgreen]

I think it makes sense that people don't want to trade Barrett...

 

Trading Lee now (even though I'd be against it) wouldn't be as big of a blow, becuase you can almost always find a big bat at 1B. How many other catchers in the game today can match Barretts offense? Maybe a handful.

 

Blanco is a good backup catcher. If you have a game where you really need D at the catcher position, Blanco is the guy you want. But with the game on the line, who do you want at the plate?

 

Today's "smart" baseball fan tends to overvalue defense, IMO, even sometimes to the point of sacrificing offense.

 

D is important, yes, but not so important that you sub an Alex Gonzalez in for a Nomar (different position, I know, but you get my point).

 

I think you're missing my point. What is the big deal that Barrett is one of the best offensive catchers in the game? It only matters on the Cubs because our offense has been so bad. Barrett's numbers wouldn't mean so much on this team had we had a couple of high OPS guys in the outfield. I would hope that's one of Hendry's priorities during the off-season.

[goonys evil twin]

 

Just to be clear: I didn't say Barrett's bad defense is the only reason the Cubs won't make postseason. Rather, I think he represents the type of player who looks godd statistically and whom fans like but is not often on a winning team. Subpar defense, not many baseball smarts. I just don't think he's a winning player.

 

The Cubs won more games with Barrett in 04 than they did in 03 when they didn't make the playoffs.

 

Winning player is a contrived notion that can only be defined after the fact. Would Derek Jeter be a winning player if he was drafted by Tampa? That kind of talk just clouds the facts. Luis Sojo has multiple World Series, and because of that many NYers consider him a "real winner". But the fact is both Jeter and Sojo won because they were on great teams.

 

Guys like Barrett take up roster spots on every single world series winning team. Mark Bellhorn was considered by many to be a stupid ballplayer with no instincts or real position. He ended up playing a crucial role on the Red Sox. Juan Encarnacion is no baseball genius, and he's got a terrible approach at the plate, yet Florida won with him.

 

No, Barrett isn't ideal. But he's no worse for this team than 15 other guys. The Cubs can win with MB catching 130 games a year. I'd be fine with upgrading defensively at catcher and taking a hit offensively. However, the only way you do that is by substantially improving the offense elsewhere. They already need multiple offensive upgrades even with MB on the team. If they downgrade the offense from C that just adds another need to the list. I'd prefer to not make things more difficult than they already are.

[goonys evil twin]

What is the big deal that Barrett is one of the best offensive catchers in the game?

 

Barrett's numbers wouldn't mean so much on this team had we had a couple of high OPS guys in the outfield.

 

But the fact is they don't have high OPS guys in the OF and they aren't likely to have them next year. Downgrading the offense from catcher would only increase the number of upgrades they'd need elsewhere, and considering how difficult it will be just to fill the current needs, it doesn't make sense to make more holes.