The Matt Murton Situation

[MembersOnlyJacket]

Murton's concept of the strike zone continues to impress. He's had the best AB's of the night for the Cubs. I'll take his knowledge of the strike zone, ability to hit the ball hard, and put it in play at age 23 over any Cub who's come through the system in the last 5 seasons. Teaching a kid the strike zone is something far more difficult than allowing a 6'2", 215 lb'er to develop HR power at this level.

[Derwood]

Steve Stone was on Boers and Bernstein today and he didn't think Murton had much of a future. He said he doesn't have enough speed to play CF and not enough power to play the corners. He thought Boston gave up on him for this reason.

 

Hmmm, I guess Steve Stone and the Red Sox probably wouldn't have much use for Tony Gwynn.

 

Ah Tony Gwynn comparisons now. :D Wasn't Gwynn a really good defender?? Also, it didn't hurt that he batted left-handed. One thing is for sure, Murton can hit lefties. I hope this board doesn't crash w/ excitement after Murton's single up the middle in the 2nd. :o

 

Murton is pretty good defender.

 

Can Murton hit righties? He surely did in the minors. We can blame the manager for not knowing if he can in the majors.

 

Actually, coming into tonight he had 21 AB's vs. Lefties and 15 vs. Righties. Hitting .257 against righties (and something like .567 against lefties)

[Wheelimus]

i'm fairly confident that Murton will develop into a high average and high OBP player who will hit 15 to 25 homeruns a year. Aka "a god send to this franchise"...

 

Sorry Stoney, but you're talking out of your rear end on this one...

[gus_dog]

Actually, coming into tonight he had 21 AB's vs. Lefties and 15 vs. Righties. Hitting .257 against righties (and something like .567 against lefties)

 

Three words....

 

 

insufficient sample size.

[KW34]

Steve Stone was on Boers and Bernstein today and he didn't think Murton had much of a future. He said he doesn't have enough speed to play CF and not enough power to play the corners. He thought Boston gave up on him for this reason.

 

Hmmm, I guess Steve Stone and the Red Sox probably wouldn't have much use for Tony Gwynn.

 

Not even close. You must only remember the heavy-set Gwynn in his 30s. He owns 5 gold gloves and has 319 career stolen bases, topping out at 56 in 1987 (2nd in the league).

[Backtobanks]

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

[dalgreen]

Steve Stone was on Boers and Bernstein today and he didn't think Murton had much of a future. He said he doesn't have enough speed to play CF and not enough power to play the corners. He thought Boston gave up on him for this reason.

 

Hmmm, I guess Steve Stone and the Red Sox probably wouldn't have much use for Tony Gwynn.

 

Not even close. You must only remember the heavy-set Gwynn in his 30s. He owns 5 gold gloves and has 319 career stolen bases, topping out at 56 in 1987 (2nd in the league).

 

You would think by now that Cub fans would get off the "every kid might turn out to be Miguel Cabrera or Albert Pujols" funk by now. Three years ago people were swearing that Nic Jackson and David Kelton would be all-stars in the major leagues. Okay, I'm exaggerating but you understand my point. Why is it out of the realm of possiblity that Murton just might not make it? Yes, his sample size against righties is small, but I also look at how balls are hit, and he hasn't hit too many of his outs hard against righties. One thing is abundantly clear, you can tell from his plate approach he wasn't brought up in the Cub organization.

[XZero771679666304]

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

 

Exactly. I think a good offense should have at least three legitimate thumpers in it. What positions they play should be irrelevant as long as they are in the lineup.

[JC]

One thing is abundantly clear, you can tell from his plate approach he wasn't brought up in the Cub organization.

 

So true.

[Derwood]

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

 

That's all good and true, but where do the Cubs make up for the power? Nomar won't be back, and you're unlikely to replace him with a power hitter. Ditto Walker. Patterson/Pie the same. And god knows who will be in RF. Too many holes w/o power.

[Wheelimus]

I'd say it's a GOOD thing that his plate approach shows he wasn't brought up in the Cubs system :lol:

 

Why do I not accept that he's not going to make it? Because when I watch him hit, I see exactly what I want out of a player, a guy who takes what the pitcher gives him and looks for the best possible result in that at bat. In only 40 at bats, the kid has 8 walks.

 

Far too early in his career to say he can't hit righties, I mean, the bulk of his ABs against them so far have been pinch hit at bats, give him some starts to see if he can do anything.

[XZero771679666304]

 

You would think by now that Cub fans would get off the "every kid might turn out to be Miguel Cabrera or Albert Pujols" funk by now. Three years ago people were swearing that Nic Jackson and David Kelton would be all-stars in the major leagues. Okay, I'm exaggerating but you understand my point. Why is it out of the realm of possiblity that Murton just might not make it? Yes, his sample size against righties is small, but I also look at how balls are hit, and he hasn't hit too many of his outs hard against righties. One thing is abundantly clear, you can tell from his plate approach he wasn't brought up in the Cub organization.

 

Personally, I have never expected stardom out of any Cubs position prospect in years. But as bad as Hollandsworth has been this year, there is no legitimate reason Dubois shouldn't have played more (although he wasn't great, and I don't think he ever would have been), and there is no reason that is there are AB's available in the OF, Holla should get any of them over Murton. This isn't a matter of Murton being great, but Todd being abysmal. If the worst Matt could do is no worse than Holla, then why not play him and find out what you have?

 

Of course with Patterson being recalled, there will be no real AB's to be had for either.

[XZero771679666304]

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

 

That's all good and true, but where do the Cubs make up for the power? Nomar won't be back, and you're unlikely to replace him with a power hitter. Ditto Walker. Patterson/Pie the same. And god knows who will be in RF. Too many holes w/o power.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about Nomar. In fact, I'd be surprised if he isn't back next year. Either way, he probably isn't going to hit 30+ homers. Like I said in a previous post, I think you need three legitimate power hitters. There are Lee and Ramirez, and we need one more. On the other hand, we could get by with just two if there are 3 or 4 15-20 homer guys around them.

 

Barrett is one, Nomar another, Patterson another, Walker probably another.

 

Of course on the other other hand, the Cubs have hit a ton of home runs last year and this year, and what good has it done? What we have been sorely lacking is OBP guys, like Matt Murton. I'll take a guy who hits 10 homers with 35-40 doubles and an OBP of .350+ over a hacking slugger. I'm not saying Matt would do that, but power really isn't our problem.

[Wheelimus]

Huh? Corey is pretty darn likely to be back next year. Ditto for Walker, we've got an extremely nice option for him. And I would not think for a second Nomar will not be back. He's said he wants to be back, and he just bought a nice house in Chicago. I'd bank on him being our shortstop next year.

 

If that's the case, we may have the most potent infield in the majors. So we'd be able to go with a more OBP oriented outfield in the corners.

 

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

 

That's all good and true, but where do the Cubs make up for the power? Nomar won't be back, and you're unlikely to replace him with a power hitter. Ditto Walker. Patterson/Pie the same. And god knows who will be in RF. Too many holes w/o power.

[Derwood]

Huh? Corey is pretty darn likely to be back next year. Ditto for Walker, we've got an extremely nice option for him. And I would not think for a second Nomar will not be back. He's said he wants to be back, and he just bought a nice house in Chicago. I'd bank on him being our shortstop next year.

 

Sorry, didn't mean Patterson or Walker wouldn't be back. I just meant they wouldn't be considered a power position (though sometimes they swing like they want to be).

 

I didn't know Nomar bought a house. In another thread, someone said he hadn't, and the prevailing thought was that he really wanted to play near where he grew up (southern California)

[dalgreen]

I'd say it's a GOOD thing that his plate approach shows he wasn't brought up in the Cubs system :lol:

 

Why do I not accept that he's not going to make it? Because when I watch him hit, I see exactly what I want out of a player, a guy who takes what the pitcher gives him and looks for the best possible result in that at bat. In only 40 at bats, the kid has 8 walks.

 

Far too early in his career to say he can't hit righties, I mean, the bulk of his ABs against them so far have been pinch hit at bats, give him some starts to see if he can do anything.

 

For clarification, I never said he wouldn't make it. I just asked why would it be out of the realm of possibility that he might not make it? I don't know if he will or if he won't, but I'm not going to swear that he'll make it or not. He may become an everyday player or he may be a career 4th or 5th outfielder, I don't know. I don't see why Steve Stone's opinion is wrong -- it's an opinion. However, I do remember him one time saying something similar about Kelton. I also never said he won't ever be able to hit righties. I just said in his limited at-bats, he hasn't hit righties very hard. I can handle hitting into outs if you're hitting the ball hard. Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

[XZero771679666304]

Huh? Corey is pretty darn likely to be back next year. Ditto for Walker, we've got an extremely nice option for him. And I would not think for a second Nomar will not be back. He's said he wants to be back, and he just bought a nice house in Chicago. I'd bank on him being our shortstop next year.

 

Sorry, didn't mean Patterson or Walker wouldn't be back. I just meant they wouldn't be considered a power position (though sometimes they swing like they want to be).

 

I didn't know Nomar bought a house. In another thread, someone said he hadn't, and the prevailing thought was that he really wanted to play near where he grew up (southern California)

 

Whether or not he bought a house, he has zero leverage on the market. As bad as they have been, Izturis and Cabrera aren't going anywhere soon, IMO. All the SoCal teams seem to be locked into their SS.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Again, Power does not equal home runs. It's getting yourself around the bases without the help of your teammates, doubles, triples, and home runs. You want power in every spot. It's not the end of the world if you have a guy with below average power in a spot(which Murton may or may not be), but you really shouldn't try and build a team around the fact that you are bullishly trying to put that player in the lineup.

[dalgreen]

I don't understand why people get locked into the stereotype of a corner OF has to hit for power. You need some speed, some guys with a high OBP, and some power. If you get the power from a non-power position (like Sandberg), obviously you can get by without power at one of the traditional power positions. The Red Sox seem to be doing okay with Mueller at 3B (a power position) and the White Sox seem to be doing fine with Posednik in LF (a power position). You just need to balance out the lineup with speed, OBP, and power.

 

That's all good and true, but where do the Cubs make up for the power? Nomar won't be back, and you're unlikely to replace him with a power hitter. Ditto Walker. Patterson/Pie the same. And god knows who will be in RF. Too many holes w/o power.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about Nomar. In fact, I'd be surprised if he isn't back next year. Either way, he probably isn't going to hit 30+ homers. Like I said in a previous post, I think you need three legitimate power hitters. There are Lee and Ramirez, and we need one more. On the other hand, we could get by with just two if there are 3 or 4 15-20 homer guys around them.

 

Barrett is one, Nomar another, Patterson another, Walker probably another.

 

Of course on the other other hand, the Cubs have hit a ton of home runs last year and this year, and what good has it done? What we have been sorely lacking is OBP guys, like Matt Murton. I'll take a guy who hits 10 homers with 35-40 doubles and an OBP of .350+ over a hacking slugger. I'm not saying Matt would do that, but power really isn't our problem.

 

I'd like to see more line-drive alley to alley hitters who know the strike zone. Too many times over the past two seasons we routinely lose when we don't hit home runs. Relying on the long ball, to me, is just as bad as when a basketball team relies on hitting threes to win games.

[frostwyrm]

Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Calling up rookies to face only lefties is one of my pet peeves. There are just not enough starting LHP's to make it worthwhile for the team or the rookie. The Braves generally don't call up rookies unless they are prepared to let them face both lefties and righties, which IMO is the smart thing to do, unless the team believes the rookie in question will never amount to more than a part-time player.

[Fanzones trumpet]

I'd say it's a GOOD thing that his plate approach shows he wasn't brought up in the Cubs system :lol:

 

Why do I not accept that he's not going to make it? Because when I watch him hit, I see exactly what I want out of a player, a guy who takes what the pitcher gives him and looks for the best possible result in that at bat. In only 40 at bats, the kid has 8 walks.

 

Far too early in his career to say he can't hit righties, I mean, the bulk of his ABs against them so far have been pinch hit at bats, give him some starts to see if he can do anything.

 

For clarification, I never said he wouldn't make it. I just asked why would it be out of the realm of possibility that he might not make it? I don't know if he will or if he won't, but I'm not going to swear that he'll make it or not. He may become an everyday player or he may be a career 4th or 5th outfielder, I don't know. I don't see why Steve Stone's opinion is wrong -- it's an opinion. However, I do remember him one time saying something similar about Kelton. I also never said he won't ever be able to hit righties. I just said in his limited at-bats, he hasn't hit righties very hard. I can handle hitting into outs if you're hitting the ball hard. Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Kelton never had Murton's plate discipline. And the notion that you need power at the corner OF positions to win in is a myth. The Yankees won 4 WS with guys like Chad Curtis and Gerald Williams in LF. And the White Sox are doing pretty damn well with Scott Podsednik in LF. Given the steroid situation, it's likely that power #s are going to continue to decrease over the next several years, making it much more of a balanced game. If the Cubs were smart--which is open to question--they'd stick Murton at #2 in the lineup and leave him alone.

[dalgreen]

Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Calling up rookies to face only lefties is one of my pet peeves. There are just not enough starting LHP's to make it worthwhile for the team or the rookie. The Braves generally don't call up rookies unless they are prepared to let them face both lefties and righties, which IMO is the smart thing to do, unless the team believes the rookie in question will never amount to more than a part-time player.

 

I don't think you're right about the Braves. When Johnson was brought up, he didn't face lefties, and I think Franceur didn't face righties. Anyway, going back to the days of Michael Tucker and Jermaine Dye, I know they didn't immediately face lefties and righties, respectively.

[XZero771679666304]

Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Calling up rookies to face only lefties is one of my pet peeves. There are just not enough starting LHP's to make it worthwhile for the team or the rookie. The Braves generally don't call up rookies unless they are prepared to let them face both lefties and righties, which IMO is the smart thing to do, unless the team believes the rookie in question will never amount to more than a part-time player.

 

You are right. If the purpose of bringing a guy up is to see what he can do, then limiting him to starts agains the occaisonal lefty totally defeats that purpose. giving him his first couple starts against LHP's was all right, but the time for him to see consistent AB's has long since passed.

 

And as for his ability to hit RHP, you can't really tell until he sees them consistently. No matter how good or bad a hitter you are, seeing one type of pitcher only in rare PH instances isn't going to accurately reflect you ability to handle them.

 

And there is really no excuse for Matt to be stuck behind Holla in any situation at this point. Todd has sucked badly in every conceivable matchup situation this year.

[dalgreen]

I'd say it's a GOOD thing that his plate approach shows he wasn't brought up in the Cubs system :lol:

 

Why do I not accept that he's not going to make it? Because when I watch him hit, I see exactly what I want out of a player, a guy who takes what the pitcher gives him and looks for the best possible result in that at bat. In only 40 at bats, the kid has 8 walks.

 

Far too early in his career to say he can't hit righties, I mean, the bulk of his ABs against them so far have been pinch hit at bats, give him some starts to see if he can do anything.

 

For clarification, I never said he wouldn't make it. I just asked why would it be out of the realm of possibility that he might not make it? I don't know if he will or if he won't, but I'm not going to swear that he'll make it or not. He may become an everyday player or he may be a career 4th or 5th outfielder, I don't know. I don't see why Steve Stone's opinion is wrong -- it's an opinion. However, I do remember him one time saying something similar about Kelton. I also never said he won't ever be able to hit righties. I just said in his limited at-bats, he hasn't hit righties very hard. I can handle hitting into outs if you're hitting the ball hard. Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Kelton never had Murton's plate discipline. And the notion that you need power at the corner OF positions to win in is a myth. The Yankees won 4 WS with guys like Chad Curtis and Gerald Williams in LF. And the White Sox are doing pretty damn well with Scott Podsednik in LF. Given the steroid situation, it's likely that power #s are going to continue to decrease over the next several years, making it much more of a balanced game. If the Cubs were smart--which is open to question--they'd stick Murton at #2 in the lineup and leave him alone.

 

I have never bought into the power position myth, either. Heck, I was infuriated back in 1989 when Palmeiro was traded and Frey and Zimmer said he would never hit for power and you can't have guys not hitting homers in two power positions (1B and LF). Regarding Murton, power shouldn't be addressed. I just don't know why it's deemed impossible that he won't ever be an everyday player. He might be, but, again, maybe he won't. A player doesn't have a bad career if he's a lifetime 4th or 5th outfielder.

[XZero771679666304]

Although I dislike a lot of Baker's moves this year, I think he made a good move by starting him off against lefties only to begin his career.

 

Calling up rookies to face only lefties is one of my pet peeves. There are just not enough starting LHP's to make it worthwhile for the team or the rookie. The Braves generally don't call up rookies unless they are prepared to let them face both lefties and righties, which IMO is the smart thing to do, unless the team believes the rookie in question will never amount to more than a part-time player.

 

I don't think you're right about the Braves. When Johnson was brought up, he didn't face lefties, and I think Franceur didn't face righties. Anyway, going back to the days of Michael Tucker and Jermaine Dye, I know they didn't immediately face lefties and righties, respectively.

 

Well, Francouer has been up for a nearly identical amount of time as Matt, and he has more AB's vs. RHP than LHP. Only letting Matt face lefties was all right at first, but the time has passed.