Another Idiotic Decision by NCAA

dalgreen · August 8, 2005

The majority of schools never even asked permission nor invited the tribal council to meet regarding using Natives as logos/mascots.

Is this speculation or fact? I am not trying to start a whole new debate on this situation, just curious if this has been proven/discussed at any point.

It's fact based on speculation. Just joking. It's only a guess, but I do know for sure the University of Illinois and Southeast Missouri State University have never gotten "permission" from tribal groups. And, although it's speculation, I'm fairly certain that that is the case in the majority of cases. Particularly since FSU is usually the only school I ever hear able to claim they have received permission from a tribal group. I also remember (I think) hearing that is the only school who has permission. I remember HBO's Real Sports doing a segment on this and they said it, too -- again, I think that's what they said. But, again, for schools like St. John's , Miami (OH), Stanford and Marquette (I'm missing a lot more to change their nickname must mean they didn't get permission for Native mascots.

fromthestretch · August 8, 2005

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

For the most part, you're right. The issue isn't necessarily with the team names but rather with the iconography used to represent them. There are a few exceptions that have been noted in this thread: Redmen, Savages and Redskins are names that are offensive, regardless of the iconography. You could probably make a case that any school that calls itself the "Fighting " could be considered offensive due to the image that the word "fighting" creates in one's mind. However, I would wager that most of the team names are not considered offensive and that most people, including those that are listed as being offended, would be fine with the schools keeping the names as long as the mascots/logos that the schools parade out in front of everyone were a bit more tasteful.

A perfect example is the logo of the Cleveland Indians. Does anyone honestly believe that many Native Americans (or any other people for that matter) would have a problem with the team name "Indians" if they were to change the logo to something more respectful?

Knightlife_in_Lubbock · August 8, 2005

Having a white guy (as is the case with Chief Illiniwek) in war paint doing a dance that isn't even a real Native dance is not a tribute. Maybe the nickname was meant as a tribute, but Chief Illiniwek is no more different than you being upset at Blue Collar TV's image of Southerners. Plus, I believe the ruling has to do with mascots, so the issue of the nicknames doesn't come into play. It's the mascots that do, and they are stereotypical and bogus.

For the most part, you're right. The issue isn't necessarily with the team names but rather with the iconography used to represent them. There are a few exceptions that have been noted in this thread: Redmen, Savages and Redskins are names that are offensive, regardless of the iconography. You could probably make a case that any school that calls itself the "Fighting " could be considered offensive due to the image that the word "fighting" creates in one's mind. However, I would wager that most of the team names are not considered offensive and that most people, including those that are listed as being offended, would be fine with the schools keeping the names as long as the mascots/logos that the schools parade out in front of everyone were a bit more tasteful.

A perfect example is the logo of the Cleveland Indians. Does anyone honestly believe that many Native Americans (or any other people for that matter) would have a problem with the team name "Indians" if they were to change the logo to something more respectful?

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

CuseCubFan69 · August 8, 2005

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

After a few Boilermakers it might feel like you have a huge cranium.

fromthestretch · August 8, 2005

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

It's a physical depiction of our enormous brain capacity.

Now I could see how someone could find the term "Hoosier" to be offensive. Hell, I grew up in Indiana, and I don't even like being referred to as a Hoosier. :P

CuseCubFan69 · August 8, 2005

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

It's a physical depiction of our enormous brain capacity.

Now I could see how someone could find the term "Hoosier" to be offensive. Hell, I grew up in Indiana, and I don't even like being referred to as a Hoosier. :P

Why is it that most the people in Indiana don't even know what the word Hoosier means?

Knightlife_in_Lubbock · August 8, 2005

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

It's a physical depiction of our enormous brain capacity.

Now I could see how someone could find the term "Hoosier" to be offensive. Hell, I grew up in Indiana, and I don't even like being referred to as a Hoosier. :P

I believe Hoosier means championship. I could see how it could confuse people living near the Wabash. :P :P

fromthestretch · August 8, 2005

What about the offensively large head on Purdue Pete? Are we all to believe that all Boilermakers have such huge craniums? :shock:

It's a physical depiction of our enormous brain capacity.

Now I could see how someone could find the term "Hoosier" to be offensive. Hell, I grew up in Indiana, and I don't even like being referred to as a Hoosier. :P

Why is it that most the people in Indiana don't even know what the word Hoosier means?

According to Merriam-Webster, a Hoosier is:

"a native or resident of Indiana -- used as a nickname"

There you go. Can't be anymore vague than that.

Knightlife_in_Lubbock · August 8, 2005

definition of a boilermaker:

A boilermaker, also known as a depth charge, is a cocktail consisting of a shot of whiskey, or vodka, and a glass of beer. The whiskey and beer are both typically, though not necessarily, of American production, with an inexpensive bourbon or a Tennessee Whiskey favored for the shot, and a mass-market American Pilsner (Miller, Budweiser, etc.) for the beer. Traditionally, the shot and the beer are served separately, although they may also be mixed beforehand by the preparer.

Maybe Purdue should get Jim Beam or Jack Daniels to lend their name (and money) to their sports arena?

"Welcome folks to tonight's Big Ten match-up between The Fighting Illini, minus their mascot, and the Purdue Boilermakers from The Jack Daniels Mackey Arena here in West Lafayette, Indiana."

fromthestretch · August 8, 2005

definition of a boilermaker:

A boilermaker, also known as a depth charge, is a cocktail consisting of a shot of whiskey, or vodka, and a glass of beer. The whiskey and beer are both typically, though not necessarily, of American production, with an inexpensive bourbon or a Tennessee Whiskey favored for the shot, and a mass-market American Pilsner (Miller, Budweiser, etc.) for the beer. Traditionally, the shot and the beer are served separately, although they may also be mixed beforehand by the preparer.

Maybe Purdue should get Jim Beam or Jack Daniels to lend their name (and money) to their sports arena?

"Welcome folks to tonight's Big Ten match-up between The Fighting Illini, minus their mascot, and the Purdue Boilermakers from The Jack Daniels Mackey Arena here in West Lafayette, Indiana."

You know, the funny thing is that the term "Boiler Makers" was originally used as an insult against Purdue in a newspaper article after Purdue beat the snot out of Wabash in football back in the late 1800s. The name stuck, and the school adopted the nickname soon after.

With all this talk about whether or not some of these school names are meant to be a tribute or not, Purdue's nickname originated as an insult from a sports writer. I should be offended...maybe I'll protest.

If anything, at least IU and Purdue have very unique nicknames and didn't settle on something common like Wildcats. I think that's something to be proud of.

Knightlife_in_Lubbock · August 8, 2005

definition of a boilermaker:

A boilermaker, also known as a depth charge, is a cocktail consisting of a shot of whiskey, or vodka, and a glass of beer. The whiskey and beer are both typically, though not necessarily, of American production, with an inexpensive bourbon or a Tennessee Whiskey favored for the shot, and a mass-market American Pilsner (Miller, Budweiser, etc.) for the beer. Traditionally, the shot and the beer are served separately, although they may also be mixed beforehand by the preparer.

Maybe Purdue should get Jim Beam or Jack Daniels to lend their name (and money) to their sports arena?

"Welcome folks to tonight's Big Ten match-up between The Fighting Illini, minus their mascot, and the Purdue Boilermakers from The Jack Daniels Mackey Arena here in West Lafayette, Indiana."

You know, the funny thing is that the term "Boiler Makers" was originally used as an insult against Purdue in a newspaper article after Purdue beat the snot out of Wabash in football back in the late 1800s. The name stuck, and the school adopted the nickname soon after.

With all this talk about whether or not some of these school names are meant to be a tribute or not, Purdue's nickname originated as an insult from a sports writer. I should be offended...maybe I'll protest.

Good point. Skip next year's post-season... nevermind.

If anything, at least IU and Purdue have very unique nicknames and didn't settle on something common like Wildcats. I think that's something to be proud of.

That's what the people from Thad Motta's hometown say about their high school nickname.....cornjerkers!

Edited August 8, 2005 by Knightlife_in_Lubbock

stuy119 · August 8, 2005

The majority of schools never even asked permission nor invited the tribal council to meet regarding using Natives as logos/mascots.

Is this speculation or fact? I am not trying to start a whole new debate on this situation, just curious if this has been proven/discussed at any point.

It's fact based on speculation. Just joking. It's only a guess, but I do know for sure the University of Illinois and Southeast Missouri State University have never gotten "permission" from tribal groups. And, although it's speculation, I'm fairly certain that that is the case in the majority of cases. Particularly since FSU is usually the only school I ever hear able to claim they have received permission from a tribal group. I also remember (I think) hearing that is the only school who has permission. I remember HBO's Real Sports doing a segment on this and they said it, too -- again, I think that's what they said. But, again, for schools like St. John's , Miami (OH), Stanford and Marquette (I'm missing a lot more to change their nickname must mean they didn't get permission for Native mascots.

Actually, C. Michigan also has a deal with the local Chippewa Tribe.

fromthestretch · August 8, 2005

You know, the funny thing is that the term "Boiler Makers" was originally used as an insult against Purdue in a newspaper article after Purdue beat the snot out of Wabash in football back in the late 1800s. The name stuck, and the school adopted the nickname soon after.

With all this talk about whether or not some of these school names are meant to be a tribute or not, Purdue's nickname originated as an insult from a sports writer. I should be offended...maybe I'll protest.

Good point. Skip next year's post-season... nevermind.

If anything, at least IU and Purdue have very unique nicknames and didn't settle on something common like Wildcats. I think that's something to be proud of.

That what the people from Thad Motta's hometown say about their high school nickname.....cornjerkers!

Yikes. Now that's an awful nickname.

OleMissCub · August 9, 2005

Delta State University back in the 50's used to be the Confederates but they were pressured to change it. So the University had a vote for the students to pick one of their appointed choices or to write in their own name. The Students all got together and 98 percent of them wrote in "Fighting Okra" as their mascot. So now, DSU is officially the "Statesmen" but unofficially the "Fighting Okra". Most folks around these parts refer to them as the Okra, not as the Statesmen.

biittner77 · August 9, 2005

Who in the world deemed you judge? How many Native Americans do you know that look like these logos? How about putting it up to a vote of full blood Native Americans? They won't. YOu know why? Because schools and professional teams know the nicknames would get shot down. It's amazing that one people can tell another people what is and what isn't offensive. I wonder what Irish people would say if at halftime of Notre Dame games the leprechaun did an Irish dance, got drunk and then got into a fight? I'm an Illinois alum, and I hate Chief Illiniwek. I know of no Native Americans who look like him or dance like him, and it's even more absurd that a white guy with paint on his face depicts him.

You forgot to mention that Chief Illiniwek's costume more closely resembles something that would be worn by the Sioux- hated enemies of the Illini.

I understand the argument that people are offended and all that. On the other hand, it seems to me that there should be a way to honor the memory of the now extinct Illini tribe in a way that celebrates their good qualities without having to abandon tradition.

Some ideas:

Get an authentic costume. Dressing Chief Illiniwek as a Sioux is too generic and therefore not much better than the Cleveland Wahoo.

Perform a dance that might actually have been performed by a Native American rather than by a gymnast.

Require undergrads to take a course to learn about who the Illini were.

I believe it's possible to honor the Native people of Illinois for who they were without altering 140 years of tradition.

The Boy Scouts, for example, use a lot of Native American symbolism/ imagery/ legends in a very respectful way. Because I was once a Boy Scout I've always thought of Native Americans as reluctant warriors that fought because they had to. Don't we risk forgeting that if we eliminate all these names that are deemed offensive? Sure we could pay tribute by building statues or museums but more people go to sports events. How many people had ever heard of the Choctaws before reading this thread?

stuy119 · August 9, 2005

Don't know why I just thought of it, but this reminds me of the South Park where they are forced to abandon the "Cows" mascot and pick between whether or not they want the mascot to be the "Giant Douches" or the "Turd Sandwiches."

Knightlife_in_Lubbock · August 9, 2005

Who in the world deemed you judge? How many Native Americans do you know that look like these logos? How about putting it up to a vote of full blood Native Americans? They won't. YOu know why? Because schools and professional teams know the nicknames would get shot down. It's amazing that one people can tell another people what is and what isn't offensive. I wonder what Irish people would say if at halftime of Notre Dame games the leprechaun did an Irish dance, got drunk and then got into a fight? I'm an Illinois alum, and I hate Chief Illiniwek. I know of no Native Americans who look like him or dance like him, and it's even more absurd that a white guy with paint on his face depicts him.
You forgot to mention that Chief Illiniwek's costume more closely resembles something that would be worn by the Sioux- hated enemies of the Illini.

I understand the argument that people are offended and all that. On the other hand, it seems to me that there should be a way to honor the memory of the now extinct Illini tribe in a way that celebrates their good qualities without having to abandon tradition.

Some ideas:

Get an authentic costume. Dressing Chief Illiniwek as a Sioux is too generic and therefore not much better than the Cleveland Wahoo.

Perform a dance that might actually have been performed by a Native American rather than by a gymnast.

Require undergrads to take a course to learn about who the Illini were.

I believe it's possible to honor the Native people of Illinois for who they were without altering 140 years of tradition.

The Boy Scouts, for example, use a lot of Native American symbolism/ imagery/ legends in a very respectful way. Because I was once a Boy Scout I've always thought of Native Americans as reluctant warriors that fought because they had to. Don't we risk forgeting that if we eliminate all these names that are deemed offensive? Sure we could pay tribute by building statues or museums but more people go to sports events.
How many people had ever heard of the Choctaws before reading this thread?

Hello, Tim McGraw's song, Indian Outlaw mentions the Cherokee, Chippewa, and the Choctaw:

TIM MCGRAW LYRICS

"Indian Outlaw"

I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

All my friends call me Bear Claw
The Village Cheaftin' is my paw-paw
He gets his orders from my maw-maw
She makes him walk the line

You can find me in my wigwam
I'll be beatin' on my tom-tom
Pull out the pipe and smoke you some
Hey and pass it around

'Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I ain't lookin' for trouble
We can ride my pony double
Make your little heart bubble
Lord, Like a glass of wine

I remember the medicine man
He caught runnin' water in my hands
Drug me around by my headband
Said I wasn't her kind

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

I can kill a deer or buffalo
With just my arrow and my hickory bow
>From a hundred yards don't you know
I do it all the time

They all gather 'round my teepee
Late at night tryin' to catch a peek at me
In nothin' but my buffalo briefs
I got 'em standin' in line

Cause I'm an Indian outlaw
Half Cherokee and Choctaw
My baby she's a Chippewa
She's one of a kind

Cherokee people
Cherokee tribe
So proud to live
So proud to die

dalgreen · August 9, 2005

Who in the world deemed you judge? How many Native Americans do you know that look like these logos? How about putting it up to a vote of full blood Native Americans? They won't. YOu know why? Because schools and professional teams know the nicknames would get shot down. It's amazing that one people can tell another people what is and what isn't offensive. I wonder what Irish people would say if at halftime of Notre Dame games the leprechaun did an Irish dance, got drunk and then got into a fight? I'm an Illinois alum, and I hate Chief Illiniwek. I know of no Native Americans who look like him or dance like him, and it's even more absurd that a white guy with paint on his face depicts him.
You forgot to mention that Chief Illiniwek's costume more closely resembles something that would be worn by the Sioux- hated enemies of the Illini.

I understand the argument that people are offended and all that. On the other hand, it seems to me that there should be a way to honor the memory of the now extinct Illini tribe in a way that celebrates their good qualities without having to abandon tradition.

Some ideas:

Get an authentic costume. Dressing Chief Illiniwek as a Sioux is too generic and therefore not much better than the Cleveland Wahoo.

Perform a dance that might actually have been performed by a Native American rather than by a gymnast.

Require undergrads to take a course to learn about who the Illini were.

I believe it's possible to honor the Native people of Illinois for who they were without altering 140 years of tradition.

The Boy Scouts, for example, use a lot of Native American symbolism/ imagery/ legends in a very respectful way. Because I was once a Boy Scout I've always thought of Native Americans as reluctant warriors that fought because they had to. Don't we risk forgeting that if we eliminate all these names that are deemed offensive? Sure we could pay tribute by building statues or museums but more people go to sports events. How many people had ever heard of the Choctaws before reading this thread?

Excellent ideas. You just left one out. How about having a 100% Native American doing an authentic dance? My question remains, how many of the people who don't think anyone should find mascots offensive would take the time to go to a Native American museum on campus? My guess is not many, yet they'll tell others that a mascot is to honor a people. Makes absolutely no sense to me. Again, I don't think many find a lot of the nicknames offensive, but it's the buffoonish (is that a word?) mascots/logos that's offensive.

OleMissCub · August 9, 2005

Again, I don't think many find a lot of the nicknames offensive, but it's the buffoonish (is that a word?) mascots/logos that's offensive.

I don't think many, if any of the college logos look bafoonish. You can look at my post one page one for pics of college logos. The mascots are a different story, it would be nice to see pictures of all the mascots to look at those as well. I'm sure many do look bafoonish. Maybe i'm just not as cynical as some of you, but I don't think these colleges made bafoonish indian mascots (if they have bafoonish indian mascots) out of some sort of racism ala "Hey, our nickname is an Indian name, let's make him look stupid as hell because we hate Indians" The main reason I'd think they might look bafoonish, is the same reason most all mascots look bafoonish in college, to try and be funny for the kids or whatever. However, the Indian mascots that I have seen from colleges don't look bafoonish they just look crappy. Usually some dude in a Sioux indian costume. Perhaps instead of banning them they should be made to analyze their mascots and make sure they are accurate and not harmfully stereotypical. That is what I would like to see him.

Derwood · August 9, 2005

Bring back Chief Knocka-Homa!

OleMissCub · August 9, 2005

Bring back Chief Knocka-Homa!

could he be from the Island ComeonIwannalayya?

....had to give a Burgess Meredith shout out

dougdescenzo · August 9, 2005

Bring back Chief Knocka-Homa!

If you're talkin about the Indy Indians mascot I'm totally with ya. Nothing was better as a kid than my father taking me to Indy and sitting in Busch Stadium with a picnic lunch and watching Chief Knocka-Homa do his dance.

JC · August 9, 2005

Since I am obviously insensitive, someone please indulge me and enlightment me as to which (if any) of the following terms/mascots are offensive (offensive meaning they should be stripped from all team paraphernalia):

Indian

Brave

Injun

Chief

Illini

Redskin

Seminole

Warrior

Red Men

Indiana

Blackhawk

OleMissCub · August 9, 2005

Since I am obviously insensitive, someone please indulge me and enlightment me as to which (if any) of the following terms/mascots are offensive (offensive meaning they should be stripped from all team paraphernalia):

Indian
Brave
Injun
Chief
Illini
Redskin
Seminole
Warrior
Red Men
Indiana
Blackhawk

Injun's, Redskins, and Redmen

imb · August 9, 2005

You dont see whats offensive about injun, redskin or redman?

Another Idiotic Decision by NCAA

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Member Statistics

Prospect News & Highlights

Recent News

Notes & Rumors

Recent Blogs