Hypothetical on Rebuild Going Back 3-4 years...Worth it in hindsight?

[Sammy Sofa]

Baez' chances of succeeding in a Hendry system are probably less than nil, and who knows how much they fucked up Castro by needlessly pushing him to the bigs. Hendry can smooch my taint.

[davell]

but Hendry deserves credit for leaving the assets necessary to make the trades and for drafting Baez and Castro.

 

Absolutely freaking not. Hendry sucked balls as a GM. He doesn't deserve credit for leaving some assets. Every team has some assets. Hendry screwed the pooch as GM. He inherited a big budget team with a farm system stacked with pitchers but no hitters (that he was responsible for building), his budget increased every year but he screwed the pooch because of his horrible philosophy and general meatheadedness.

 

This could not be more correct.

[Thed Hoyerstein]

but Hendry deserves credit for leaving the assets necessary to make the trades and for drafting Baez and Castro.

 

Absolutely freaking not. Hendry sucked balls as a GM. He doesn't deserve credit for leaving some assets. Every team has some assets. Hendry screwed the pooch as GM. He inherited a big budget team with a farm system stacked with pitchers but no hitters (that he was responsible for building), his budget increased every year but he screwed the pooch because of his horrible philosophy and general meatheadedness.

 

This is absolutely correct. How many organizations are there in baseball where if a new GM came in, you could say there are zero assets? FFS, the Brewers, who are in about the same shape as the Cubs 4 years ago, even have "the assets necessary to make trades"

[Thed Hoyerstein]

but Hendry deserves credit for leaving the assets necessary to make the trades and for drafting Baez and Castro.

 

Absolutely freaking not. Hendry sucked balls as a GM. He doesn't deserve credit for leaving some assets. Every team has some assets. Hendry screwed the pooch as GM. He inherited a big budget team with a farm system stacked with pitchers but no hitters (that he was responsible for building), his budget increased every year but he screwed the pooch because of his horrible philosophy and general meatheadedness.

 

This is absolutely correct. How many organizations are there in baseball where if a new GM came in, you could say there are zero assets? FFS, the Brewers, who are in about the same shape as the Cubs 4 years ago, even have "the assets necessary to make trades"

 

also, castro wasn't drafted, he was signed. look at how many failed first rounders there were under hendry.

[Clem Fandango]

but Hendry deserves credit for leaving the assets necessary to make the trades and for drafting Baez and Castro.

 

Absolutely freaking not. Hendry sucked balls as a GM. He doesn't deserve credit for leaving some assets. Every team has some assets. Hendry screwed the pooch as GM. He inherited a big budget team with a farm system stacked with pitchers but no hitters (that he was responsible for building), his budget increased every year but he screwed the pooch because of his horrible philosophy and general meatheadedness.

 

This is absolutely correct. How many organizations are there in baseball where if a new GM came in, you could say there are zero assets? FFS, the Brewers, who are in about the same shape as the Cubs 4 years ago, even have "the assets necessary to make trades"

 

also, castro wasn't drafted, he was signed. look at how many failed first rounders there were under hendry.

 

You can pin some of that blame on Tim Wilken, too. What's more sad about the first rounders who failed, is the first rounders they passed up to select those failures instead.

[Guest]

Weren't they both (hendry and wilken that is) being held back by ownership on the first round draft picks? (i.e. vitters over wieters)

[davell]

The two cases I remember hearing money being an issue was the Vitters/Wieters pick and the Hayden Simpson pick.

[Guest]

but i agree that saying they started with "zilch" in terms of assets is hyperbole.

 

Even I can agree that it was hyperbole for me to use the term zilch. But, the thought process behind that post was to stress just how little talent Hendry left behind on his way out, and certainly wasn't meant to be taken THAT literally. Just making a point that Epstein had much less to work with than Hendry.

[Backtobanks]

but i agree that saying they started with "zilch" in terms of assets is hyperbole.

 

Even I can agree that it was hyperbole for me to use the term zilch. But, the thought process behind that post was to stress just how little talent Hendry left behind on his way out, and certainly wasn't meant to be taken THAT literally. Just making a point that Epstein had much less to work with than Hendry.

 

Which is why I post on this topic. When posters state that "the cupboard was bare" and they had "zilch in assets", I feel the need to point out that those statements are exaggerations. People respond that "all teams have assets", but the "assets" have netted a good chunk of this team. Theo deserves a lot of credit for having his plan and getting players through drafts, signings, and trades, but the trades couldn't have happened without the players he inherited. Theo is a technician, not a magician.

[Sammy Sofa]

Who gives a [expletive] if they traded Hendry-era players? How is that any kind of positive reflection on Hendry? He failed to utilize them with any kind of sustained success while he was in charge, so...good for him, I guess. I don't think you even know what the hell you're trying to give him credit for.

 

Sure, let's give him credit for not being SO terrible that he technically didn't leave the successive regime with absolutely nothing to work with. What a legacy!

 

I have no idea why you seem so determined to think that being able to trade players acquired under a previous GM is some kind of badge of honor for the failed GM. It's like looking at a CEO coming in and saving a company from failing, but wanting to give credit to the previous CEO for putting the new guy in a position to be able to save the company in the first place. Sorry, Hendry's legacy as a turd is cemented for eternity.

[Boris]

Aaron Miles. Day games.

 

Hendry deserves credit for mediocrity? Nah.

[Guest]

"Hendry didn't leave the cupboard barren" was one of Kyle's favorite bullet points the last 4 years.

[Guest]

Hendry left the system at a low enough talent level that competing in 2012 was impossible and 2013 an extreme longshot when combined with the payroll being cut.

 

That b2b is somehow equating this shortage to a literal lack of baseball players like the Cubs had a 17 man roster in 2011 is confusing if not surprising. If he's somehow remarking that Hendry deserves credit for leaving Theo with a handful of nickels because Theo was able to turn some of the nickels into dimes, well that also is confusing if not surprising.

[Guest]

http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/09/10/theo-the-trader-evaluating-epsteins-trades-during-his-cubs-tenure/

[davell]

http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/09/10/theo-the-trader-evaluating-epsteins-trades-during-his-cubs-tenure/

 

Nice article. I've stayed away from the Wrigleyville stuff for the most part, unless Sharma writes it. Has it been solid stuff?

[Guest]

http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/09/10/theo-the-trader-evaluating-epsteins-trades-during-his-cubs-tenure/

 

Nice article. I've stayed away from the Wrigleyville stuff for the most part, unless Sharma writes it. Has it been solid stuff?

 

i don't read much of it but occasionally you run into something interesting (never written by matthew trueblood)

[Gilby]

Baez' chances of succeeding in a Hendry system are probably less than nil, and who knows how much they [expletive] up Castro by needlessly pushing him to the bigs. Hendry can smooch my taint.

 

I agree that Baez would've had less of a chance of succeeding, but if we're going to blame a particular front office for how Castro has turned out, it shouldn't be Hendry's. I think it's kind of forgotten how dominant Starlin was before getting called up. In my mind he wasn't rushed.

[Sammy Sofa]

Baez' chances of succeeding in a Hendry system are probably less than nil, and who knows how much they [expletive] up Castro by needlessly pushing him to the bigs. Hendry can smooch my taint.

 

I agree that Baez would've had less of a chance of succeeding, but if we're going to blame a particular front office for how Castro has turned out, it shouldn't be Hendry's. I think it's kind of forgotten how dominant Starlin was before getting called up. In my mind he wasn't rushed.

 

For about two dozen games literally weeks after turning 20. He was always obviously aggressive, and I'd like to think that a smarter FO would have taken a bit more time to try and refine that a bit, especially given his age. Even if it just meant him coming up a year later at 21 like Addison did, they really did just jump on promoting him as soon as he broke out.

[Guest]

Baez' chances of succeeding in a Hendry system are probably less than nil, and who knows how much they [expletive] up Castro by needlessly pushing him to the bigs. Hendry can smooch my taint.

 

I agree that Baez would've had less of a chance of succeeding, but if we're going to blame a particular front office for how Castro has turned out, it shouldn't be Hendry's. I think it's kind of forgotten how dominant Starlin was before getting called up. In my mind he wasn't rushed.

 

For about two dozen games literally weeks after turning 20. He was always obviously aggressive, and I'd like to think that a smarter FO would have taken a bit more time to try and refine that a bit, especially given his age. Even if it just meant him coming up a year later at 21 like Addison did, they really did just jump on promoting him as soon as he broke out.

 

yeah

 

and he was trying to save his job because the team looked like crap

[Sammy Sofa]

Baez' chances of succeeding in a Hendry system are probably less than nil, and who knows how much they [expletive] up Castro by needlessly pushing him to the bigs. Hendry can smooch my taint.

 

I agree that Baez would've had less of a chance of succeeding, but if we're going to blame a particular front office for how Castro has turned out, it shouldn't be Hendry's. I think it's kind of forgotten how dominant Starlin was before getting called up. In my mind he wasn't rushed.

 

For about two dozen games literally weeks after turning 20. He was always obviously aggressive, and I'd like to think that a smarter FO would have taken a bit more time to try and refine that a bit, especially given his age. Even if it just meant him coming up a year later at 21 like Addison did, they really did just jump on promoting him as soon as he broke out.

 

yeah

 

and he was trying to save his job because the team looked like crap

 

Definitely. It was so obviously done to just try and jump start things in the short run.

[Guest]

After getting promoted, Castro proceded to hit .297/.335/.425 in his first 1900 MLB plate appearances. He was clearly ready for the majors, and it's a huge stretch to pin his subsequent inconsistency on how quickly he made it to MLB.

[Gilby]

I'm on my phone, so without looking it up again, I want to say Castro's minor league walk rates were actually respectable. Everything said he was clearly mlb ready, including his performance early in his career. I mean yeah, they probably thought he still had some development left, but teams call up guys all of the time with hopes they continue to develop in the majors. There are a bunch of things Hendry did wrong, but I'm just not of the belief Starlin is one of them.

[davell]

Here are a few "what ifs" that we either dodged or missed out on....

 

Maddux as manager instead of Sveum, if he hadn't taken himself out of the running.

 

If we would have done 4/36 instead of 6/36 on Cespedes, although it seemed Beane locked it up without giving anyone else a shot.

 

If Garza hadn't gotten hurt, the package from Texas had Odor in it as well from most reports.

 

If Shark had accepted 5/85 from us.

 

If Annibal hadn't given Detroit the last shot....

 

Any of these could have triggered other moves, kept something we've got now from happening, whatever.....

[Sammy Sofa]

After getting promoted, Castro proceded to hit .297/.335/.425 in his first 1900 MLB plate appearances. He was clearly ready for the majors, and it's a huge stretch to pin his subsequent inconsistency on how quickly he made it to MLB.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't technically; just that maybe he could have been even better, both offensively and defensively, if Hendry wasn't in panic-mode. Bringing him up then wasn't wrong, but it wasn't necessarily the best choice, and here we are.

[Guest]

After getting promoted, Castro proceded to hit .297/.335/.425 in his first 1900 MLB plate appearances. He was clearly ready for the majors, and it's a huge stretch to pin his subsequent inconsistency on how quickly he made it to MLB.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't technically; just that maybe he could have been even better, both offensively and defensively, if Hendry wasn't in panic-mode. Bringing him up then wasn't wrong, but it wasn't necessarily the best choice, and here we are.

 

yeah, obviously he was successful and therefore ready "enough" (more than enough, even). i just think he could have been polished up more in the minors. he was only 20 for christ's sake and obviously an outstanding talent.

 

on the other hand, it's not like development was a strength of that organization...so ironically maybe it didn't hurt him so much under that regime.