Carlos Beltran to Giants

[YearofDaCubs]

i'm going to be optimistic and say that our next chance to contend will be 2020.

Sounds about right with Hendry at the helm.

 

Yup he's never turned around a 90 loss team into a playoff team in one season.

Anything is possible with a 120+ million payroll. He's a horrible GM and good luck to you for having faith in him.

 

yeah because that's exactly what umfan said.

 

also, you said that the cubs will be horrible next year, but now you're saying that anything is possible... which is it?

With a 120mil payroll anything is possible but that doesn't mean I have faith in Hendry turning it around next year. There's no more Lee or Soriano in their prime either so my belief is that the cubs will be terrible next year. I'm also of the opinion that it will be best for the organization to get rid of the older vets for anything that they can get and build from within.

[dew1679666265]

With a 120mil payroll anything is possible but that doesn't mean I have faith in Hendry turning it around next year. There's no more Lee or Soriano in their prime either so my belief is that the cubs will be terrible next year. I'm also of the opinion that it will be best for the organization to get rid of the older vets for anything that they can get and build from within.

 

There's no Lee or Soriano in their prime, but there could be Pujols or Fielder in his prime. That would be better than Lee or Soriano.

[YearofDaCubs]

With a 120mil payroll anything is possible but that doesn't mean I have faith in Hendry turning it around next year. There's no more Lee or Soriano in their prime either so my belief is that the cubs will be terrible next year. I'm also of the opinion that it will be best for the organization to get rid of the older vets for anything that they can get and build from within.

 

There's no Lee or Soriano in their prime, but there could be Pujols or Fielder in his prime. That would be better than Lee or Soriano.

Giving Pujols 8-10+ years would be stupid. I totally understand Pujols isn't flawed like Soriano but the reality is giving long contracts to 30+ year old players isn't a good idea.

[dew1679666265]

Giving Pujols 8-10+ years would be stupid. I totally understand Pujols isn't flawed like Soriano but the reality is giving long contracts to 30+ year old players isn't a good idea.

 

So sign the 28 year old Fielder. The point is we can have that kind of superstar player again if we're willing to pay them and a combo of Fielder/Wilson without giving away Zambrano makes this team a contender in a really horrid division.

[davearm2]

Giving Pujols 8-10+ years would be stupid. I totally understand Pujols isn't flawed like Soriano but the reality is giving long contracts to 30+ year old players isn't a good idea.

 

So sign the 28 year old Fielder. The point is we can have that kind of superstar player again if we're willing to pay them and a combo of Fielder/Wilson without giving away Zambrano makes this team a contender in a really horrid division.

It should tell you something about where this team is, when the strongest argument in favor of the Cubs potentially contending next year is that they play in a really horrid division.

 

You never hear "well the Cubs' pitching is terrific" or "the heart of the order is killer" or "look at all the young players entering their prime". It's always, "they might suck less than everyone else".

 

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

[Tarver]

Acquiring Wilson & Fielder would be long-term moves, but yeah there's no reason for Hendry to make Ramirez and Marshall untouchable.

[Sammy Sofa]

Marshall wouldn't net you those kind of pieces.

 

Ramirez could, but he won't allow himself to be traded.

 

And thus, here we are.

 

Though really, those reason for a team like the Cubs to ever go into full rebuilding mode (which is effectively giving up for the foreseeable future). The fact that people here think that is unavoidable or even ideal is just baffling to me. The Cubs can easily both build for the future AND contend next year with a team capable of both taking advantage of a weak division and decent enough to challenge the arguably or obviously better teams in a short playoff series.

[SouthSideRyan]

Giving Pujols 8-10+ years would be stupid. I totally understand Pujols isn't flawed like Soriano but the reality is giving long contracts to 30+ year old players isn't a good idea.

 

So sign the 28 year old Fielder. The point is we can have that kind of superstar player again if we're willing to pay them and a combo of Fielder/Wilson without giving away Zambrano makes this team a contender in a really horrid division.

It should tell you something about where this team is, when the strongest argument in favor of the Cubs potentially contending next year is that they play in a really horrid division.

 

You never hear "well the Cubs' pitching is terrific" or "the heart of the order is killer" or "look at all the young players entering their prime". It's always, "they might suck less than everyone else".

 

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Wouldn't the strongest argument be that we have one of the best hitters in baseball in this scenario?

[dew1679666265]

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Signing a 28 year old first baseman who's one of the best hitters in the game and a 31 year old pitcher who has less mileage on his arm than the vast majority of 30+ guys is building a longterm contender.

 

Pick up those two fill in young stars like Castro and Soto and solid young players like Jackson, McNutt, Szczur, Whitenack, etc., coming up and you have the makings of an extremely good team going forward long term. And at the same time adding Fielder and Wilson gives us the tools to be competitive next year as well.

 

Tearing the current team apart and eliminating any chance of contending for 2-3 years is pointless for a team that can win as soon as next year, while at the same time bringing in the pieces to be serious contenders long term.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Giving Pujols 8-10+ years would be stupid. I totally understand Pujols isn't flawed like Soriano but the reality is giving long contracts to 30+ year old players isn't a good idea.

 

So sign the 28 year old Fielder. The point is we can have that kind of superstar player again if we're willing to pay them and a combo of Fielder/Wilson without giving away Zambrano makes this team a contender in a really horrid division.

It should tell you something about where this team is, when the strongest argument in favor of the Cubs potentially contending next year is that they play in a really horrid division.

 

You never hear "well the Cubs' pitching is terrific" or "the heart of the order is killer" or "look at all the young players entering their prime". It's always, "they might suck less than everyone else".

 

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Wouldn't the strongest argument be that we have one of the best hitters in baseball in this scenario?

 

If we could get Fielder or Pujols, and keep Ramirez, the heart of the lineup would be great. 2. Castro 3. Aram 4. Fielder/Pujols 5. Byrd 6. Soto

 

If we could get Wilson, a rotation of Wilson, Garza, Demp, Z, Cash/Wells would rival '08-'09.

 

This would be one of the better teams in the NL. The Phillies are aging. The Giants are perenially offensively challenged. The Brewers and Cards will both get worse before they get better. Not only would we benefit from a weak divison, but a weak league. With those moves, and those alone, I would very, very much like that teams chances.

[davearm2]

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Signing a 28 year old first baseman who's one of the best hitters in the game and a 31 year old pitcher who has less mileage on his arm than the vast majority of 30+ guys is building a longterm contender.

 

Pick up those two fill in young stars like Castro and Soto and solid young players like Jackson, McNutt, Szczur, Whitenack, etc., coming up and you have the makings of an extremely good team going forward long term. And at the same time adding Fielder and Wilson gives us the tools to be competitive next year as well.

 

Tearing the current team apart and eliminating any chance of contending for 2-3 years is pointless for a team that can win as soon as next year, while at the same time bringing in the pieces to be serious contenders long term.

I'm in favor of the Cubs paying out for an elite free agent or two, since as you mentioned, those are longterm propositions. I still don't like their chances in 2012 though. That's why I don't agree with making the guys with one year left untouchable, if there are solid offers out there.

[Little Slide Rooter]

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Signing a 28 year old first baseman who's one of the best hitters in the game and a 31 year old pitcher who has less mileage on his arm than the vast majority of 30+ guys is building a longterm contender.

 

Pick up those two fill in young stars like Castro and Soto and solid young players like Jackson, McNutt, Szczur, Whitenack, etc., coming up and you have the makings of an extremely good team going forward long term. And at the same time adding Fielder and Wilson gives us the tools to be competitive next year as well.

 

Tearing the current team apart and eliminating any chance of contending for 2-3 years is pointless for a team that can win as soon as next year, while at the same time bringing in the pieces to be serious contenders long term.

I'm in favor of the Cubs paying out for an elite free agent or two, since as you mentioned, those are longterm propositions. I still don't like their chances in 2012 though. That's why I don't agree with making the guys with one year

left untouchable, if there are solid offers out there.

 

Ramirez made Ramirez untouchable. If he's in next years plans, I'm OK with that.

[dew1679666265]

I'm in favor of the Cubs paying out for an elite free agent or two, since as you mentioned, those are longterm propositions. I still don't like their chances in 2012 though. That's why I don't agree with making the guys with one year left untouchable, if there are solid offers out there.

 

There's no guarantee they'll contend next year, but if you hold a firesale you guarantee they won't compete next year. You also take the chance that Fielder and/or Wilson won't sign with the Cubs because they don't appear committed to winning after selling off their major league talent.

 

I'd much rather hold onto guys like Byrd, Z, and others who have just one year left on their contracts, sign Fielder and Wilson and try to contend next year. If we don't, we can always trade those same guys at next year's deadline.

[davearm2]

How about focusing on building a team that can contend in any division, even if the process takes more than a year and involves trading a Marshall or a Ramirez for pieces that will be more valuable in the longterm.

 

Those aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Signing a 28 year old first baseman who's one of the best hitters in the game and a 31 year old pitcher who has less mileage on his arm than the vast majority of 30+ guys is building a longterm contender.

 

Pick up those two fill in young stars like Castro and Soto and solid young players like Jackson, McNutt, Szczur, Whitenack, etc., coming up and you have the makings of an extremely good team going forward long term. And at the same time adding Fielder and Wilson gives us the tools to be competitive next year as well.

 

Tearing the current team apart and eliminating any chance of contending for 2-3 years is pointless for a team that can win as soon as next year, while at the same time bringing in the pieces to be serious contenders long term.

I'm in favor of the Cubs paying out for an elite free agent or two, since as you mentioned, those are longterm propositions. I still don't like their chances in 2012 though. That's why I don't agree with making the guys with one year

left untouchable, if there are solid offers out there.

 

Ramirez made Ramirez untouchable. If he's in next years plans, I'm OK with that.

Forget Ramirez then. He's just one of several in this situation.

 

Marshall

Byrd

Baker

Barney

Dempster

etc.

[dew1679666265]

Forget Ramirez then. He's just one of several in this situation.

 

Marshall

Byrd

Baker

Barney

Dempster

etc.

 

Marshall, Baker and Barney aren't going to bring much on the open market. Marshall would bring the most, but he's still simply a setup man with very little closing experience, that's not going to draw a big return. Baker can be valuable in a platoon, but teams don't generally trade a lot for platoon guys. Barney is a young, cheap, very good defensive player who is our only backup SS on the roster. Most teams have guys like him so he's not going to demand much on the market.

 

Byrd and Dempster would bring more, but both have their true values depressed heavily due to down years. Byrd is still coming back from getting hit in the face and teams are going to have questions about that. Dempster has pitched very well this year, but had horrid luck/defense the first part of the year and his overall numbers have been dragged down significantly because of that. We're not going to get his full value because teams are going to point at his average ERA and WHIP and claim he's declining when he likely isn't. Both of these guys would bring in more at next year's deadline if we're out of it then.

[Sammy Sofa]

Marshall

 

Soft-tossing middle reliever. As good as he is, the Cubs aren't likely to get enough of a return because he isn't a proven closer to justify trading him. In short you're proposing trading him just for the sake of trading him.

 

Byrd

 

If the ideal deal is out there, but again, there's zero reason for the Cubs to be in fire sale mode. As bad as they are they can easily compete again next year, and trading Byrd likely leaves a very large hole in the OF that can't be filled until 2012 since Fukudome will also be gone and potentially you're going to have to deal with a useless Soriano.

 

Baker

 

See Marshall. A useful player, but ultimately too limited (in this case by actually ability, or the lack thereof when it comes to hitting righties, as opposed to lack of a reputation). No reason not to trade him if the right deal is there...but it's very unlikely to be there. Give the Cubs' questions at 2B and potentially at 3B he likely holds much more value on the team than via a low-level trade.

 

Barney

 

Wait, what? I was probably the biggest Barney basher here, but he's turned out to be useful, young and cheap. Why ship him off when he's all of those things and the Cubs have no obvious answer at 2B? A Baker/Barney platoon at 2B next year has the very real shot of being very productive AND cost-effective.

 

Dempster

 

You'd be creating another hole in the rotation. Cashner and Wells both have big question marks right now, so subtracting a good pitcher from the rotation without an obvious replacement isn't a good idea. Yes, there's McNutt, but as we've seen this year you don't go shedding your pitching options just because you can. Besides, Dempster's player's option and his price tag likely preclude the Cubs getting a decent return short of them picking up too much of the tab.

[Little Slide Rooter]

While I agree fully that with the right moves, the Cubs can very much contend next year, if not emerge as the favorites for the division, but of the owners decide on a fire sale and a youth movement, that's beyond our control, and guys like Byrd, Dempster, Soto, and Baker are the guys who should be shopped. I really hope it doesn't come down to that, and really dont think it should, but again, it's not our decision and what happens happens.

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't imagine how anyone would believe we'd have a full fire sale youth movement. You're seriously talking about a payroll drop of about 75M.

 

There'd be roughly 8 fans at Opening Day

[Little Slide Rooter]

I can't imagine how anyone would believe we'd have a full fire sale youth movement. You're seriously talking about a payroll drop of about 75M.

 

There'd be roughly 8 fans at Opening Day

 

If it came down to that, they're dump everything they can. They could get the payroll down to about 90. If you believe the turd media boogeymen like Rosenthal and Wittenmyer, which i dont, your going to hear a lot of that. I don't think it will happen, and hope it doesn't happen, but we really don't know what goes on behind those doors when the ownership and management is assessing the situation.

 

This being said, as low as attendance is dipping, I'm sure they know as well as we do that if they put out a quality team for 2012, it will shoot up overnight. That's why I don't by into Joe Cowleys this is becoming a White Sox town bull [expletive], because even if they were able to take over, the minute the Cubs decided to win again, every last one of the turncoats would flood back north.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait, is the attendance even still dropping?

 

I mean, it could be, but based on the home games I've seen recently the stands seem a lot more filled than they did earlier in the season.

[SouthSideRyan]

If it came down to that, they're dump everything they can. They could get the payroll down to about 90.

 

If we dumped "everything we can" like some on here have suggested, they could get the payroll down to ~35 (eat 17M/Y on Soriano, 7M on Z, 2M for Ramirez buyout, 1M on Marmol)

 

We'd lose 130 games, but oh well at least we'd have a mildly upgraded farm system.

Edited July 28, 2011 by SouthSideRyan

[Little Slide Rooter]

Wait, is the attendance even still dropping?

 

I mean, it could be, but based on the home games I've seen recently the stands seem a lot more filled than they did earlier in the season.

 

Maybe not. It comes down to is that the offseason needs to be feast or famine. Preferably feast. They cant build a few dime store free agents and farm hands around what they already have an expect anything more than what this team has done. If they don't go all out and re sign Ramirez and sign Pujols or Fielder, as well as hopefully Wilson or another solid starter they may as well go all out fire sale, because if they do go that route, Byrd, Dempster, and probably Soto and Marshall will be long gone by the time theyre ready to contend again.

[Sammy Sofa]

What? Why does it "need to be feast or famine?" That doesn't even make any sense.

[javy knows my name]

What? Why does it "need to be feast or famine?" That doesn't even make any sense.

 

Yeah, the Cubs may be the best example of a team that needs to do the opposite of that

[Little Slide Rooter]

What? Why does it "need to be feast or famine?" That doesn't even make any sense.

 

They need to either have a big expensive offseason or sell whatever they can. No point in any in between. By expensive offseason, I mean the 3moves that have been discussed in every thread inn which the off season has been discussed. If they plan on letting Ram wall, and don't plan on signing one of the big 1B, theres no point resigning Pena and filling the other holes with junk.Byrd and Dempster could fetch a very nice price if that were the plan and we can enjoy Lou Momtanez, Brian LaHair, and Casey Coleman for a fun filled 100 loss season. Do you think for a moment that a lineup of

 

Jackson

Castro

Byrd

Pena

soto

Baker

Soriano (Montanez/Colvin/Whatever if they trade him)

Barney

 

And the rotation we started this year with would be good for anything but another distant 5th?