Cubs 2nd to last in the NL in OPS aftrer 7th inning

[17 Seconds]

Also, nobody but statheads "believed" in the 2007 Cubs. They weren't "supposed" to beat the Diamondbacks by popular reckoning.

 

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that.

[17 Seconds]

I think we can all agree that the Cubs choked in the '03, '07, and '08 postseason.

 

Kyle is heavily denying that

[Rob]

Do clutch players exist? Possibly. It's tough to find an adequate criteria to determine clutch, and limited sample sizes of that make the job considerably harder.

 

Are there players out there who fold in the clutch? Absolutely. While again, clutch is harder to determine... basic human nature suggests that there are some players who have trouble with the pressure. Greinke, Willis, and Greene amongst others have all struggled with anxiety related issues, and would seem to be slightly more likely to fold under extreme pressure.

 

Here's the real question... how do you identify which players on our team are anti-clutch? Given the extremely limited sample sizes, it's impossible to accurately determine who was just cold, who was unlucky, and who walked off the field after dropping a load in their pants. You want to blow up the whole team? Fine... but you're gonna ship off some players who very likely could have been a huge positive impact on the next postseason series.

 

Edit:

 

Can a mod delete this post? I want to see if this page can be entirely taken up by people on my ignore list.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Rob

[17 Seconds]

Are there players out there who fold in the clutch? Absolutely.

 

but kyle said that they cant do that because of all the pressure they overcame in the minors and blah blah blah

Edited August 11, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[Hairyducked Idiot]

And why did some of them succumb to it when they've faced similar pressures many times in their career and did just fine?

 

Sorry, but Ryan Dempster pitching 1 good inning in 2007 (in a 4 run deficit in the 8th inning) doesn't suddenly mean he's immune to choking. Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker. Next you're going to tell me how well Ryan Theriot performed in a 7th grade twinkie eating contest.

 

Your definition of what is and is not an acceptable "pressure" situation seems to be entirely cherrypicked and have no coherent logic behind it.

[17 Seconds]

And why did some of them succumb to it when they've faced similar pressures many times in their career and did just fine?

 

Sorry, but Ryan Dempster pitching 1 good inning in 2007 (in a 4 run deficit in the 8th inning) doesn't suddenly mean he's immune to choking. Your arguments are becoming weaker and weaker. Next you're going to tell me how well Ryan Theriot performed in a 7th grade twinkie eating contest.

 

Your definition of what is and is not an acceptable "pressure" situation seems to be entirely cherrypicked and have no coherent logic behind it.

 

so you're saying that pitching an inning in relief in the 8th inning when your team is trailing by 4 runs is the same as starting the first game of the playoffs?

 

awesome.

 

i dont even care though, it doesn't even matter. your argument was weak from the beginning... pretending that one inning of pitching suddenly proves something about a player.

Edited August 11, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Also, nobody but statheads "believed" in the 2007 Cubs. They weren't "supposed" to beat the Diamondbacks by popular reckoning.

 

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that.

 

So the 2007 Cubs couldn't handle the pressure of being expected to perform competently but lose the series?

 

The more you examine it, the more bizarre this pressure theory gets.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

so you're saying that pitching an inning in relief in the 8th inning when your team is trailing by 4 runs is the same as starting the first game of the playoffs?

 

awesome.

 

I'm saying your definition of pressure seems to coincide perfectly with when you really want the team to win. Because that's what this is all about: You projecting your emotions onto professional athletes.

[17 Seconds]

so you're saying that pitching an inning in relief in the 8th inning when your team is trailing by 4 runs is the same as starting the first game of the playoffs?

 

awesome.

 

I'm saying your definition of pressure seems to coincide perfectly with when you really want the team to win. Because that's what this is all about: You projecting your emotions onto professional athletes.

 

Now you're not even making sense. Your arguments have now gone from weak to complete nonsense

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One inning = weak.

 

4.2 innings = acceptable

 

Eight games = enough to judge a team

[17 Seconds]

Also, nobody but statheads "believed" in the 2007 Cubs. They weren't "supposed" to beat the Diamondbacks by popular reckoning.

 

And they weren't supposed to get destroyed and swept. By a team that got swept in the next round. By a team that got swept in the round after that.

 

So the 2007 Cubs couldn't handle the pressure of being expected to perform competently but lose the series?

 

The more you examine it, the more bizarre this pressure theory gets.

 

You don't have to be expected to win to have pressure on you.

 

Keep digging

[17 Seconds]

One inning = weak.

 

4.2 innings = acceptable

 

Eight games = enough to judge a team

 

More nonsense. I'm stunned. Not once have I defined any players as specifically being chokers. Actually, I've repeatedly said otherwise

 

Perhaps you'd understand if I used some awesome Harry Potter analogies

Edited August 11, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

Now you're not even making sense. Your arguments have now gone from weak to complete nonsense

 

All I want is a consistent definition of "pressure" from you, so we can actually examine which Cubs players can and can't perform under it.

 

If the fact that Dempster was starting Game 1 of a playoff series rather than pitching in relief with a four-run lead was the difference that put too much pressure on him, how do we explain the fact that he retired seven of the first eight batters he faced, and was pitching scoreless ball until the fifth? Were the first two innings not pressure-y enough to get to him?

[DivineBovine]

Precisely. I am only trying to figure out a rational explanation for why the Cubs have failed to perform when it counts the past 5 seasons. Going back to 2003, when they had almost no expectations and actually won a series in the post-season against a team they weren't supposed to beat. And all of the sudden when people started believing in them, they haven't performed at all. They won the last 2 division titles because they had by far the most talent in the division, not because they played well under pressure.

 

Many people who completely discount "clutch" simply ignores the fact that pressure affects athletes. Some people thrive under pressure, but most people frankly don't. For every Tiger Woods, there are a hundred Greg Normans. Hitting a baseball is not like throwing dice. If you are nervous and your hands are shaking, it is not affecting the dice. Baseball is different. I would think that this is a given.

 

And then there are those who believe that pressure affects ballplayers, but can't find a reason the Cubs seem to feel it more than others. What about the thousands of blue shirts they see at every road game? What about the endless references to Bartman? What about the way Wrigley and the city goes crazy when they win? Of course they care. Even if you don't think the players care at all about the fans or what they think, what about the last 2 postseason chokes? You don't think they care that they got swept and embarassed in two straight postseason series? You don't think Milton Bradley cares that he is making $10 million and playing the worst ball he's played in years? Of course they care. There is no team out there that feels the pressure more than the Cubs. Not the Yankees. Not the Red Sox. Nobody else.

 

you're projecting a lot of your own [expletive] on the cubs, here. is there more pressure in the playoffs? yes. is there more pressure on the cubs than the DBacks or Dodgers? Debateable, but let's say yes. Did the Cubs fail? Yes. But did all of that cause them to fail? It's hard to say if it even played a part, and sitting on your couch getting pissed off everytime Steve Phillips says STEVE BARTMAN doesn't make it so.

 

It's correlation, not causation. At least it's not proven causation.

 

 

I never claimed to have PROVEN anything. This can never be PROVEN or DISPROVEN.

 

I am simply putting forth a theory, and it has obviously stirred up a lot of discussion. Great. That's what the board is for.

 

Forget I even mentioned the B word. But do you really think it is so ridiculous that the Cubs have actually felt more pressure than other teams recently?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You don't have to be expected to win to have pressure on you.

 

Keep digging

 

Then why did someone try to explain the pressure on the Cubs during the last five years as them having expectations to win? It was specifically said that they won in 2003 NLDS because nobody expected them to, but then lost recently because the expectations put too much pressure on them.

[17 Seconds]

You don't have to be expected to win to have pressure on you.

 

Keep digging

 

Then why did someone try to explain the pressure on the Cubs during the last five years as them having expectations to win? It was specifically said that they won in 2003 NLDS because nobody expected them to, but then lost recently because the expectations put too much pressure on them.

 

Stop asking me about what other people said

[Derwood]

 

but i'm not even saying pressure was the only reason they lost. all i'm saying is it played a role.

 

and all I was asking is why pressure played a role in the the Cubs failing the last two post-seasons, but it didn't cause the BoSox to lose when they had equal if not greater pressure on them?

 

what the hell? it seems like you're just trying to be annoying. last i checked, the 2004 red sox had different players than the 2007 and 2008 cubs.

 

where have i ever said that the amount of pressure determines how a team would react to it?

 

i never said that. every team reatcs differently. seriously, either read the thread or don't make obnoxious posts that could be answered by simply reading what i'm saying.

 

I'm trying to figure out what YOUR point is, which, at this point, seems to be "There is this nebulous thing called pressure that, at times, affects some players, but not always, and not the same players each time."

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If we want to argue that the 2008 Cubs had extra pressure on themselves because of what they did in 2007, then there's a point to be made there. Though it doesn't explain why guys like Fukudome had such awful series.

 

But that's a whole lot better than claiming the fans and atmosphere at Wrigley puts significantly more pressure on them than other playoff teams face.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One inning = weak.

 

4.2 innings = acceptable

 

Eight games = enough to judge a team

 

More nonsense. I'm stunned. Not once have I defined any players as specifically being chokers. Actually, I've repeatedly said otherwise

 

Perhaps you'd understand if I used some awesome Harry Potter analogies

 

So your argument is that the team as a whole chokes, but not the players?

 

This just keeps getting weirder.

[17 Seconds]

 

but i'm not even saying pressure was the only reason they lost. all i'm saying is it played a role.

 

and all I was asking is why pressure played a role in the the Cubs failing the last two post-seasons, but it didn't cause the BoSox to lose when they had equal if not greater pressure on them?

 

what the hell? it seems like you're just trying to be annoying. last i checked, the 2004 red sox had different players than the 2007 and 2008 cubs.

 

where have i ever said that the amount of pressure determines how a team would react to it?

 

i never said that. every team reatcs differently. seriously, either read the thread or don't make obnoxious posts that could be answered by simply reading what i'm saying.

 

I'm trying to figure out what YOUR point is, which, at this point, seems to be "There is this nebulous thing called pressure that, at times, affects some players, but not always, and not the same players each time."

 

i think maybe you dont understand what pressure is

[DivineBovine]

You don't have to be expected to win to have pressure on you.

 

Keep digging

 

Then why did someone try to explain the pressure on the Cubs during the last five years as them having expectations to win? It was specifically said that they won in 2003 NLDS because nobody expected them to, but then lost recently because the expectations put too much pressure on them.

 

 

Yeah, that was just 1 sentence in a longer post by me. Why do people keep cutting one sentence out of the context of a longer post and jump on it?

 

Really, I think expectations add to pressure, but it is only 1 factor. Not everything.

[17 Seconds]

One inning = weak.

 

4.2 innings = acceptable

 

Eight games = enough to judge a team

 

More nonsense. I'm stunned. Not once have I defined any players as specifically being chokers. Actually, I've repeatedly said otherwise

 

Perhaps you'd understand if I used some awesome Harry Potter analogies

 

So your argument is that the team as a whole chokes, but not the players?

 

This just keeps getting weirder.

 

despite what you want to believe, it's a team sport.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

i think maybe you dont understand what pressure is

 

Pressure is what happens to a player when Dextermorgan really, really wants them to perform well. Except in the first two innings of a playoff series.

 

Or something. I don't know. I'm having trouble following what does and does not count as pressure.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

despite what you want to believe, it's a team sport.

 

Except Derrek Lee. He must not be a good teammate, because he didn't let the pressure get to him.

[17 Seconds]

anymore obnoxious posts? i know you've got a few in store.

 

whatever dude, keep pretending that the cubs just got really unlucky last season and that pressure had nothing to do with it. keep pretending that players are robots and that everything that happens on the field can be calculated in a computer.

 

anybody with common sense who watched this team the last 2 years in the playoffs could see that they were really feeling the pressure.