Re: Cleveland Indians DFA Andy Marte

[Guest]

Yeah, it's not like Cameron was good enough to be the centerpiece in a trade that netted an in-prime KG jr.

[Mephistopheles]

might not be the most important stat ever but its not as if mike cameron wont end up with a career warp around 100 or more - which is something aramis ramirez won't do.

[17 Seconds]

Yeah, it's not like Cameron was good enough to be the centerpiece in a trade that netted an in-prime KG jr.

 

Doesn't really mean anything, especially considering the circumstances. Victor Zambrano landed Scott Kazmir. Who was the centerpiece in the trade for Santana?

[Guest]

Yeah, it's not like Cameron was good enough to be the centerpiece in a trade that netted an in-prime KG jr.

 

Doesn't really mean anything, especially considering the circumstances. Victor Zambrano landed Scott Kazmir. Who was the centerpiece in the trade for Santana?

I refuse to get sucked into an argument about it. My post was a direct reply to this:

 

Could Chris Young even net a "stud" pitcher in return? About the best Chris Young can hope for is Mike Cameron's career. While Cameron's one of those guys who fluctuates from being vastly underrated to wildly overrated, I don't remember him even in the prime of his career being a super-hot commodity that you could hope to swap for a stud pitcher like a Matt Cain or something.

If you can't see the connection, then it isn't worth discussing.

 

 

 

btw - I find it hard to believe that so many have issues remembering the roster transactions for AZ at the end of 2007. Maybe it's one of those things where people just blocked the whole state out their consciousness for a few months there.

[17 Seconds]

You're right. I didn't realize he said that. Sorry. All I remembered atthe time was that badnews said Cameron was overrated.

[badnews]

Tim, you sort of just skipped over the part where I said "the best" Chris Young could hope for is Mike Cameron's career, which is not the same as Mike Cameron. And let's not pretend there weren't extenuating circumstances around the Griffey trade,

 

Let's get back to the original statement I was critiquing: what stud pitcher do you think Chris Young, dangled out there on the trade market, is going to bring back?

[Mephistopheles]

Let's get back to the original statement I was critiquing: what stud pitcher do you think Chris Young, dangled out there on the trade market, is going to bring back?

 

Yeah, it's not like Young was good enough to be the centerpiece in a trade that netted a four time 200 K guy.

[17 Seconds]

lol so Vazquez is a stud pitcher now?

 

When you try to pump a pitcher up with "4 time 200 k guy" ad nothing else, that's a pretty good indication that he's not a great pitcher.

[TruffleShuffle]

lol so Vazquez is a stud pitcher now?

 

When you try to pump a pitcher up with "4 time 200 k guy" ad nothing else, that's a pretty good indication that he's not a great pitcher.

 

so what if he's not great? for most of his career he's been above-average and durable. plus he's spent a lot of the last five years pitching in front of lousy defenses, so his fielding-independent ERA has been better than his actual ERA. even if he's a #2/3 and eats a lot of innings, that's still a valuable commodity.

[Guancous]

Sorry to stick to the original topic but would anyone here object to Hendry picking Marte off of waivers for a minor league deal? When will Marte's waiver process be complete?

[CubColtPacer]

Sorry to stick to the original topic but would anyone here object to Hendry picking Marte off of waivers for a minor league deal? When will Marte's waiver process be complete?

 

I don't think signing him to a minor league deal is an option unless he is released. Someone please correct me if any of this below information is inaccurate as I am not totally 100% on this.

 

If he's traded, the team who traded for him has to put him on their 40 man roster and then he would have to make the 25 man at the end of ST or get exposed to waivers again. If he's claimed on waivers, the same thing applies to the team who claims him. If he clears waivers, the Indians will just assign him to their AAA affiliate (I don't think he has enough service time to demand to be a free agent).

 

Even if he somehow became a free agent, I doubt he would want to sign with the Cubs. Marte is a former star prospect, and if they have a choice in the matter they would like to find somewhere that they can play and prove themselves.

 

I would have no problems with a minor league deal, but I don't think that's really possible. If the Cubs want him they'll need to be highly considering keeping him on their major league bench.

[Mephistopheles]

lol so Vazquez is a stud pitcher now?

 

When you try to pump a pitcher up with "4 time 200 k guy" ad nothing else, that's a pretty good indication that he's not a great pitcher.

 

hes going to end up with a career warp between 90-100 or pretty close.... hes had three seasons with a warp over 8, thats one fewer than zambrano and two more than josh beckett and the same amount as andy pettitte. not that warp means a lot, but it illustrates a point

[Guest]

Sorry to stick to the original topic but would anyone here object to Hendry picking Marte off of waivers for a minor league deal? When will Marte's waiver process be complete?

 

I don't think signing him to a minor league deal is an option unless he is released. Someone please correct me if any of this below information is inaccurate as I am not totally 100% on this.

 

If he's traded, the team who traded for him has to put him on their 40 man roster and then he would have to make the 25 man at the end of ST or get exposed to waivers again. If he's claimed on waivers, the same thing applies to the team who claims him. If he clears waivers, the Indians will just assign him to their AAA affiliate (I don't think he has enough service time to demand to be a free agent).

 

Even if he somehow became a free agent, I doubt he would want to sign with the Cubs. Marte is a former star prospect, and if they have a choice in the matter they would like to find somewhere that they can play and prove themselves.

 

I would have no problems with a minor league deal, but I don't think that's really possible. If the Cubs want him they'll need to be highly considering keeping him on their major league bench.

 

At this juncture, Marte should look at playing in Japan.

[Guancous]

Sorry to stick to the original topic but would anyone here object to Hendry picking Marte off of waivers for a minor league deal? When will Marte's waiver process be complete?

 

I would have no problems with a minor league deal, but I don't think that's really possible. If the Cubs want him they'll need to be highly considering keeping him on their major league bench.

 

Thank you for clarifying Marte's status.

[17 Seconds]

lol so Vazquez is a stud pitcher now?

 

When you try to pump a pitcher up with "4 time 200 k guy" ad nothing else, that's a pretty good indication that he's not a great pitcher.

 

so what if he's not great? for most of his career he's been above-average and durable. plus he's spent a lot of the last five years pitching in front of lousy defenses, so his fielding-independent ERA has been better than his actual ERA. even if he's a #2/3 and eats a lot of innings, that's still a valuable commodity.

 

Did you read the thread? Meph's Vazquez post was in response to Badnews asking if Chris Young could be the centerpiece of a trade for a "stud" pitcher.

 

Is Vazquez a stud pitcher? No. Did anybody say he was a bad pitcher? No.

[17 Seconds]

lol so Vazquez is a stud pitcher now?

 

When you try to pump a pitcher up with "4 time 200 k guy" ad nothing else, that's a pretty good indication that he's not a great pitcher.

 

hes going to end up with a career warp between 90-100 or pretty close.... hes had three seasons with a warp over 8, thats one fewer than zambrano and two more than josh beckett and the same amount as andy pettitte. not that warp means a lot, but it illustrates a point

 

Just answer this- Is Javier Vazquez a stud pitcher?

[Mephistopheles]

Dan Haren and Javier Vazquez are similar.

[17 Seconds]

lolol

[inari]

Arguments that are about nothing but semantics sure are worthwhile.

[17 Seconds]

Arguments that are about nothing but semantics sure are worthwhile.

 

it's not semantics when the argument is that far from the truth. that's like saying that arguing whether or not orlando hudson is an elite hitter is semantics.

[Mephistopheles]

lolol

 

Laugh it up, fuzzball.

 

198.0 IP, 188:57 K:BB, 28.75 Stuff, 3.58 ERA - Javier Vazquez, PECOTA

210.3 IP, 189:45 K:BB, 28.55 Stuff, 3.53 ERA - Dan Haren, PECOTA

 

Haren's better, but similar is usable.

[17 Seconds]

wow. cherry picking pecota projections to argue that they're similar pitchers? i'm shocked that meph would resort to something like that. shocked.

 

vazquez is one of those guy whose peripherals always looks good but they never translate into actually being good.

 

ERA+ last 5 seasons

 

92

100

98

127

98

 

wow. STUD.

 

seriously you could make the argument he's a decent or even good pitcher, but to say he's an elite pitcher is just a flat out lie and you know it. when your era has been in the mid-to-high 4's in 4 of the last 5 seasons, you're not a top pitcher. period.

 

you still didn't answer the question that would potentially end this argument though. is javier vazquez an elite pitcher?

[Mephistopheles]

hey little kid, dont put words in my mouth.

 

Let's get your damn facts right.

 

1. I did not say that Javier Vazquez was an "elite" pitcher or a "stud" pitcher.

2. I mentioned that Chris Young was traded for him, and he's a very good pitcher. These are facts.

3. I said that Haren and Vazquez are comparable.

4. It's not cherry-picking PECOTA. ZiPS and Marcel have Vazquez with a better projected ERA.

 

What's pretty hysterical is that you spend multiple posts (and pms) bitching and complaining about me saying that Javier Vazquez is an elite, stud pitcher. And then you have the stones to admit "you still didn't answer the question that would potentially end this argument though. is javier vazquez an elite pitcher?"

 

What have I argued? I simply noted that Chris Young was the centerpiece of a trade for Javier Vazquez* when someone asked what kind of stud pitcher that Chris Young could be traded for.

 

*a very good pitcher whose resume is more impressive than Dan Haren's.

[17 Seconds]

Why did you post this?

 

Let's get back to the original statement I was critiquing: what stud pitcher do you think Chris Young, dangled out there on the trade market, is going to bring back?

 

Yeah, it's not like Young was good enough to be the centerpiece in a trade that netted a four time 200 K guy.

 

Badnews never said anything about him bringing back a good pitcher. If you're not saying he brought back an elite pitcher then why did you reply to his post like he was?

 

Oh and don't even bring up PMs considering you're the one who sent me PMs telling me to "Shut up" and then threatening to ofllow me around the board and taunt me.

Edited February 23, 2009 by 17 Seconds

[17 Seconds]

Oh and stop saying Vazquez is a very good pitcher. Peripherals don't make you a good pitcher.

 

When your ERA is in the mid to high 4's for 5 out of the last years, you're not unlucky or decieving. You're just not that good. The goal is to not give up runs. When your peripherals don't match up with your ERA one season or maybe even 2 seasons, you can make arguments about the pitcher being good.

 

When it happens every year, it's no longer a fluke. You're giving up a lot of runs every year.