LOOGYs

[Ivy.n.Denver]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Marshall is a long man/should be starter

Cotts is inconsistant at best.

Joe Beimal should be the man for the job

[Mephistopheles]

no

[Ivy.n.Denver]

no

 

Excellent point

[Tyrant]

I wish we would have held onto Rich Hill, because if all the stars aligned and everything went right, he could have been a passable LOOGY.

[Outshined_One]

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

I take this statement to mean that you believe if a RH reliever and a LH reliever have comparable splits against left-handed hitters, you'd prefer to have the LH reliever. Am I wrong in saying this?

[Ivy.n.Denver]

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

I take this statement to mean that you believe if a RH reliever and a LH reliever have comparable splits against left-handed hitters, you'd prefer to have the LH reliever. Am I wrong in saying this?

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'd prefer. I'd even prefer a LH reliever over a RH reliever with a little better numbers vs. left-handed hitters. Reason being - hitters have splits too and most often a lefty isn't going to hit a LH reliever as well.

[Mephistopheles]

loogys =/= lefty relievers

[Ivy.n.Denver]

loogys =/= lefty relievers

 

Are you saying there isn't much (if any) difference between a LOOGY and a LH reliever? I would respectfully disagree if you are.

 

Remember Mike Remlinger, Kent Mercker, Glendon Rusch? All significantly better vs. RH hitters. Hell both Marshall and Cotts had OPS vs. LH's 100 points higher than vs. RH's.

 

Brian Shouse would have been a great signing.

[Mephistopheles]

no. im saying that LOOGYs are worthless. I want a lefty who can get righties out too and lefties.

[Ivy.n.Denver]

no. im saying that LOOGYs are worthless. I want a lefty who can get righties out too and lefties.

 

I agree, we should get Johan Santana or Cole Hamels to work out of our pen. Get it done Jim!

[The Other 15]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

What is not the same about a RH pitcher getting a LH hitter out?

[Ivy.n.Denver]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

What is not the same about a RH pitcher getting a LH hitter out?

 

All I'm saying is you have to look at both the pitcher's splits and the hitter's splits

 

I did some quick back of the envelope math and this is what I found:

 

LH hitter vs LH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .256

OBP .320

SLG .482

OPS .802

 

LH hitter vs RH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .276

OBP .352

SLG .552

OPS .905

[Mephistopheles]

Anyways, in reality last year LHB vs LHPs had a OPS of like 699 and LHBs vs RHPs had an OPS of about 777. No one is saying there isn't a split. What we're saying is that wasting a roster spot (or two) on LOOGYs isn't worth it. Sure they're good at getting lefties out, but they suck at getting righties out, which means we burn through our pen a lot quicker and if is a righty sandwiched in between lefties and we leave the LOOGY in against the righty, he's cooked as they suck at getting righties out.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

This is actually something I've always wondered about, actually.

 

Will a pitcher with a reverse platoon split cancel out a batter's platoon advantage?

 

Let's say you have two roughly equal hitters: a lefty who hits both armers fairly well, and a lefty who is just a pure righty-masher.

 

Would a righty with a reverse platoon split do better or worse against the second batter?

[The Other 15]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

What is not the same about a RH pitcher getting a LH hitter out?

 

All I'm saying is you have to look at both the pitcher's splits and the hitter's splits

 

I did some quick back of the envelope math and this is what I found:

 

LH hitter vs LH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .256

OBP .320

SLG .482

OPS .802

 

LH hitter vs RH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .276

OBP .352

SLG .552

OPS .905

So, if I understand your position correctly, you would rather have a LH pitcher face a LH hitter in every key situation late in the game? Then why have a RH closer? Other teams will surely send LH bats up there, right?

 

I have to disagree with your premise that just because in general LH hitters have better splits vs RH pitchers, you would automatically prefer the reverse situation. Taking individuals numbers, more importantly than that, taking their recent success into consideration, and then I make the call.

 

I've seen effective relievers removed too many times to see the matchup guy blow the inning or game.

[Ivy.n.Denver]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

What is not the same about a RH pitcher getting a LH hitter out?

 

All I'm saying is you have to look at both the pitcher's splits and the hitter's splits

 

I did some quick back of the envelope math and this is what I found:

 

LH hitter vs LH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .256

OBP .320

SLG .482

OPS .802

 

LH hitter vs RH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .276

OBP .352

SLG .552

OPS .905

So, if I understand your position correctly, you would rather have a LH pitcher face a LH hitter in every key situation late in the game? Then why have a RH closer? Other teams will surely send LH bats up there, right?

 

I have to disagree with your premise that just because in general LH hitters have better splits vs RH pitchers, you would automatically prefer the reverse situation. Taking individuals numbers, more importantly than that, taking their recent success into consideration, and then I make the call.

 

I've seen effective relievers removed too many times to see the matchup guy blow the inning or game.

 

And I've seen situations where effective relievers blow the inning or game with an obvious match-up guy standing in the pen ready to go. Having said that I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, of course you have to look at each situation individually.

 

To answer your first question yes I believe that most of the time later in the game you'd use a LOOGY to face a tough LH hitter in a close game. I'm not talking about bringing in a LH to face Michael Borne in a two run game with two outs in the 8th. I'm talking tight games with guys like Bruce, Fielder, McLouth, LaRoche, Ankiel, Kennedy, Either, Delgado, Loney, Howard, S. Drew, - guys with lopsided splits. Obviously if the reliever is a lights-out type of guy there's no reason to bring in a LOOGY. This is the answer to your 2nd question - no I generally wouldn't play match-ups in a 9th inning save situation with the closer in the game. The closer should be your 1st or 2nd best reliever and trustworthy enough to be given a longer leash.

 

There is only one guy in the cubs bullpen (at the moment) that fits that bill.

 

But if it's late in a close game (7-8th inning) and Prince Fielder is stepping up to the plate I'd elect to use Will Ohman (for example) over the Shark.

 

I think if you're going to go with a 12 man bullpen there should be room for a specialist from both sides. I hope not to see Heilman facing too many LH this season and I hoped to the cubs landed someone like Brian Shouse.

[Ivy.n.Denver]

Anyways, in reality last year LHB vs LHPs had a OPS of like 699 and LHBs vs RHPs had an OPS of about 777. No one is saying there isn't a split. What we're saying is that wasting a roster spot (or two) on LOOGYs isn't worth it. Sure they're good at getting lefties out, but they suck at getting righties out, which means we burn through our pen a lot quicker and if is a righty sandwiched in between lefties and we leave the LOOGY in against the righty, he's cooked as they suck at getting righties out.

 

You're right, I calculated the total bases incorrectly, by my new (and improved ) calculations it was .721 and .804. Again I didn't use anyone with less than 100 at bats.

 

By the way - Cotts sucked against lefties last year. Remeber Mike Remlinger? That guy couldn't retire a lefty if his life depended on it. How are either of these guys better than a LOOGY?

[Ivy.n.Denver]

This is actually something I've always wondered about, actually.

 

Will a pitcher with a reverse platoon split cancel out a batter's platoon advantage?

 

Let's say you have two roughly equal hitters: a lefty who hits both armers fairly well, and a lefty who is just a pure righty-masher.

 

Would a righty with a reverse platoon split do better or worse against the second batter?

 

I'd say he'd do better againt the second batter. Usually righties more effective against lefties are that way because of a certain pitch they throw. Most of the time it's a cutter that has exceptional movement (coming back to hit the inside corner) or a nasty change-up. Most guys don't have nasty change-ups or cutters that batters give up on so I'd guess the 2nd hitter who feasts on RH pitching isn't doing it on these types of pitches.

[The Other 15]

What are people's opinions about LOOGYs? I've always felt that having a lefty in the pen who just murders left handed hitting is a very valuble thing to have. The cubs don't seem to share my opinion and from previous discussions I know there are people on this board that disagree too.

 

I realize that we have RH relievers that have decent splits vs. LH hitters but I don't think its the same.

 

Cotts and Marshall are not LOOGYs. I was hoping the cubs would go after a guy like Brian Shouse but they don't seem to be inclined.

What is not the same about a RH pitcher getting a LH hitter out?

 

All I'm saying is you have to look at both the pitcher's splits and the hitter's splits

 

I did some quick back of the envelope math and this is what I found:

 

LH hitter vs LH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .256

OBP .320

SLG .482

OPS .802

 

LH hitter vs RH pitcher (all MLB w/minimum 100 ab)

BA .276

OBP .352

SLG .552

OPS .905

So, if I understand your position correctly, you would rather have a LH pitcher face a LH hitter in every key situation late in the game? Then why have a RH closer? Other teams will surely send LH bats up there, right?

 

I have to disagree with your premise that just because in general LH hitters have better splits vs RH pitchers, you would automatically prefer the reverse situation. Taking individuals numbers, more importantly than that, taking their recent success into consideration, and then I make the call.

 

I've seen effective relievers removed too many times to see the matchup guy blow the inning or game.

 

And I've seen situations where effective relievers blow the inning or game with an obvious match-up guy standing in the pen ready to go. Having said that I do agree with what you're saying for the most part, of course you have to look at each situation individually.

 

To answer your first question yes I believe that most of the time later in the game you'd use a LOOGY to face a tough LH hitter in a close game. I'm not talking about bringing in a LH to face Michael Borne in a two run game with two outs in the 8th. I'm talking tight games with guys like Bruce, Fielder, McLouth, LaRoche, Ankiel, Kennedy, Either, Delgado, Loney, Howard, S. Drew, - guys with lopsided splits. Obviously if the reliever is a lights-out type of guy there's no reason to bring in a LOOGY. This is the answer to your 2nd question - no I generally wouldn't play match-ups in a 9th inning save situation with the closer in the game. The closer should be your 1st or 2nd best reliever and trustworthy enough to be given a longer leash.

 

There is only one guy in the cubs bullpen (at the moment) that fits that bill.

 

But if it's late in a close game (7-8th inning) and Prince Fielder is stepping up to the plate I'd elect to use Will Ohman (for example) over the Shark.

 

I think if you're going to go with a 12 man bullpen there should be room for a specialist from both sides. I hope not to see Heilman facing too many LH this season and I hoped to the cubs landed someone like Brian Shouse.

I'm talking tight games with guys like Bruce, Fielder, McLouth, LaRoche, Ankiel, Kennedy, Either, Delgado, Loney, Howard, S. Drew, - guys with lopsided splits.

I get what you're saying, I still have to disagree (in general). Guys like that require the best pitcher you have not the best LH pitcher. Often times the numbers the LOOGYS posses vs other individual hitters are impressive only because of sample size. Beware of those extreme looking splits like "Rhodes has held Utley to a .000 ba in his career."

 

But if it's late in a close game (7-8th inning) and Prince Fielder is stepping up to the plate I'd elect to use Will Ohman (for example) over the Shark. That's a bit extreme. Those types of hitter (again, not to be repetitive) require your best not a inexperienced rook. How about last year when Marmol was the 7-8th inning guy? I'm going with Marmol over Ohman every time. Are you going with Biemel over Broxton? I doubt you would.

 

I don't think you're wrong (not that there's a right or wrong here), I just think that you might be painting with too broad a brush because I think the individual situation should be addressed ---individually (for lack of a better word).

[B]

the best way to get a good loogy is to eat a mouth full of skittles. they make great loogies.