Jacque Jones a +25 CF?

[Mephistopheles]

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders2-07.gif

 

If that's the case, then he's a top ten centerfielder, maybe top five when he has his normal offensive season. Weird.

 

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/leaders1-07.gif

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Pujols is the best defensive player in baseball.

[SouthSideRyan]

Pujols never should've moved off of 3B.

 

I assume this is UZR?

[VVMattVV]

Ryan Braun is terrible. Are there any other starting 3B with significant playing time in recent years that have been worse than him?

[SouthSideRyan]

And I assume this is per/162 or per/150, or whichever full season # is applied?

 

Otherwise some of these guys are even better/worse than their #s.(Gutierrez, Owens, Braun)

[Guest]

Ryan Braun is terrible. Are there any other starting 3B with significant playing time in recent years that have been worse than him?

I once heard that Chipper, on a cumulative basis, is the worst defensive 3B in history. Don't know how the person backed up that statement, though.

[haltz]

I assume this is UZR?

+/- is John Dewan.

[Abe Frohman]

What is this list and where is Derrek Lee?

[imb]

That's interesting, if that's the case, maybe he keeps Pie on the bench again in 2008.

 

I guess we just pray he hits like it's 2006 again, with that defense in CF, he'd be really valuable.

[erik316wttn]

Ryan Braun is terrible. Are there any other starting 3B with significant playing time in recent years that have been worse than him?

 

If you go by fielding percentage alone, he was the worst in 14 years.

[cheapseats]

Pujols is the best defensive player in baseball.

 

Michael, I thought Jacque Jones in centerfield would be a disaster. What happened?

[Little Slide Rooter]

I like how the entire Brewers infield is toward the top of the trailors lists.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

What is this list and where is Derrek Lee?

 

 

Although Lee's defense is good, most defensive metrics consider him only slightly above average. FWIW last year Dewan felt his system underrated Lee:

 

GRB: What happened to Derek Lee? He seemed to be pretty average in your system rankings but in your personal rankings he was a little bit higher. Why that discrepancy?

 

JOHN: Derek Lee is a player who has shown slightly above average defensive ability on ground balls, but he has always had the reputation of really being able to scoop throws from his infielders. When we did that analysis he came out second best in baseball, second to Albert Pujols, amazingly. I felt that that ability was important (scooping throws), and the plus/minus system didn't track it well enough, and he needed to be still among the best in my personal rankings, but I didn't think of him as the best in baseball or the best in the National League.

 

 

Link

[SaorsaDaonnan]

The title of this thread is "Jacque Jones a +25 CF?", but your table lists Jones at +13, just a bit more than half that...are you somehow translating the number

in the chart to a different system, or was it merely a typo?

 

I'm guessing the latter; while the former would rank Jones as one of the most valuable defenders in the game, the latter would only suggest that he outplayed most others at his position, which isn't impossible to believe, given his decent athleticism and the smallish nature of Wrigley's outfield (if the system factors out OF size, disregard the last bit of this comment)

[haltz]

The title of this thread is "Jacque Jones a +25 CF?", but your table lists Jones at +13, just a bit more than half that...are you somehow translating the number in the chart to a different system, or was it merely a typo?

That's in 645 innings in CF.

[MPrior]

Can anyone describe to me, in a nutshell, how these +/- numbers are calculated? Second, are they +/- something tangible, like runs, or outs, or something, or are they just comparative numbers? Last, what makes this metric better than others? I haven't really kept up with it, but last I heard (this was a while ago), the general belief was that defensive metrics were not entirely to be trusted.

[haltz]

Can anyone describe to me, in a nutshell, how these +/- numbers are calculated? Second, are they +/- something tangible, like runs, or outs, or something, or are they just comparative numbers? Last, what makes this metric better than others? I haven't really kept up with it, but last I heard (this was a while ago), the general belief was that defensive metrics were not entirely to be trusted.

Follow the link to that interview posted on the first page. Also, here's an interview from THT. Both cover some of the methodology. You'd also come up with a lot just by searching The Hardball Times on either the plus/minus system or defensive stats in general.

 

As far as what the plays are worth, .75 runs is a good approximation. That's the lwt value of the baserunner plus the additional out. I'm under the impression that this varies by position, but I don't know how much. Maybe Meph can answer that.

[javy knows my name]

Can anyone describe to me, in a nutshell, how these +/- numbers are calculated? Second, are they +/- something tangible, like runs, or outs, or something, or are they just comparative numbers? Last, what makes this metric better than others? I haven't really kept up with it, but last I heard (this was a while ago), the general belief was that defensive metrics were not entirely to be trusted.

 

Regarding your sig, please, PLEASE tell me Hawk was referring to Erstad. Lie to me if you have to. It would make my day.

[Hosak8]

Perhaps I'm just old school, but I think it's laughable that metrics have become the measure of how good a baseball player is, as opposed to baseball statistics.

 

It's like the kids who never could make the team got together and created a bunch of convoluted mathematical formulas to determine who could play and who could not. And now, these formulas are the accepted measure of a player's value.

 

It's like the guys from "The Big Bang Theory" have taken over baseball.

[Guest]

Perhaps I'm just old school, but I think it's laughable that metrics have become the measure of how good a baseball player is, as opposed to baseball statistics.

 

It's like the kids who never could make the team got together and created a bunch of convoluted mathematical formulas to determine who could play and who could not. And now, these formulas are the accepted measure of a player's value.

 

It's like the guys from "The Big Bang Theory" have taken over baseball.

It would seem that post was made with the pure intention of picking a fight to me.

[Derwood]

Perhaps I'm just old school, but I think it's laughable that metrics have become the measure of how good a baseball player is, as opposed to baseball statistics.

 

It's like the kids who never could make the team got together and created a bunch of convoluted mathematical formulas to determine who could play and who could not. And now, these formulas are the accepted measure of a player's value.

 

It's like the guys from "The Big Bang Theory" have taken over baseball.

 

oh geez, you've asked for it now

[SouthSideRyan]

Perhaps I'm just old school, but I think it's laughable that metrics have become the measure of how good a baseball player is, as opposed to baseball statistics.

 

 

So you realize this makes no sense right? These NERDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! metrics are baseball statistics. But, no they weren't on the back of your baseball cards as a kid so they're made by people who've never played the game and just like doing quadratic equations on their Friday nights.

[haltz]

"If they had this book when I was playing, I would have been the best shortstop who ever lived!" - Ozzie Guillen on The Fielding Bible

 

What a saber nerd.

[MPrior]

Can anyone describe to me, in a nutshell, how these +/- numbers are calculated? Second, are they +/- something tangible, like runs, or outs, or something, or are they just comparative numbers? Last, what makes this metric better than others? I haven't really kept up with it, but last I heard (this was a while ago), the general belief was that defensive metrics were not entirely to be trusted.

 

Regarding your sig, please, PLEASE tell me Hawk was referring to Erstad. Lie to me if you have to. It would make my day.

 

You know what, I think he was. It's been a while since I put it on there, so my memory is a little hazy, but I'm pretty sure it was Erstad.

[javy knows my name]

Can anyone describe to me, in a nutshell, how these +/- numbers are calculated? Second, are they +/- something tangible, like runs, or outs, or something, or are they just comparative numbers? Last, what makes this metric better than others? I haven't really kept up with it, but last I heard (this was a while ago), the general belief was that defensive metrics were not entirely to be trusted.

 

Regarding your sig, please, PLEASE tell me Hawk was referring to Erstad. Lie to me if you have to. It would make my day.

 

You know what, I think he was. It's been a while since I put it on there, so my memory is a little hazy, but I'm pretty sure it was Erstad.

 

Excellent, thanks! Oh, and just my two cents: I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can dismiss metrics such as OPS+ and ERA+ in favor of RBI and W/L for a pitcher. These really aren't that revolutionary, yet they are monumentally better than "old school" stats at evaluating individual, non-team, -park, -league-based stats? What could possibly be irrelevant about that!? Joe Morgan makes me hate things.