Mike Fontenot

[Skyballer]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

Tell me, why do you and everyone worship the almighty OPS? OBP is much more important.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

 

I'm trying to show how you're overvaluing Theriot. There's a difference between trying to argue he's a decent player and presenting him as you are...as if he should be the Cubs' answer at SS for years to come.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Sammy Sofa

[E.J.]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade?

There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense.

Heres the proof.

cubs are playing small ball

small ball=sb+singles

sb+singles=Riot

 

You making up equations is not proof of anything.

[Mizzou]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

Tell me, why do you and everyone worship the almighty OPS? OBP is much more important.

I don't know if it's much more important in general, but it is pretty stupid to bash a guy because of a low OPS when he's clearly not a power hitter. Most players don't hit for power, those who do should be looked at in a positive way, rather than those who don't being looked at in a negative way.

[treebird]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade?

There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense.

Heres the proof.

cubs are playing small ball

small ball=sb+singles

sb+singles=Riot

 

that is not proof. at all. proof would be numbers showing how his performance is above and beyond what we could reasonably hope to achieve via an alternative avenue. what you've given us is a bland statement that means nothing. sb+singles=riot? come on.

[Skyballer]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

But you're proposing someting that won't happen.

As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

[E.J.]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

Tell me, why do you and everyone worship the almighty OPS? OBP is much more important.

 

Because OPS leads to total bases. OBP is important, but so is SLG %. You can't completely ignore the importance of SLG %.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

But you're proposing someting that won't happen.

 

Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you.

 

As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

 

So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter?

[Skyballer]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

why do you have to have a "hole" per se to upgrade?

There is no upgrade available at short and Theriot is a big part of this offense.

Heres the proof.

cubs are playing small ball

small ball=sb+singles

sb+singles=Riot

 

that is not proof. at all. proof would be numbers showing how his performance is above and beyond what we could reasonably hope to achieve via an alternative avenue. what you've given us is a bland statement that means nothing. sb+singles=riot? come on.

I've giving numbers that deal with Theriot compared to league averages for a SS, so has truffle and TT. They will prove Theriot to have above average nubers for a SS.

As far as the alternative, think in house or none.

[Skyballer]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

But you're proposing someting that won't happen.

 

Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you.

 

As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

 

So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter?

As far as who IS on the Cubs.

Theriot is the best option and there is no real upgrade previously available on the market.

Also, Mods can you split this thread?

[Drew Doughty]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

[treebird]

 

You're not looking at the big picture here. Over the course of this season the Cubs offense has been bad. I agree with you that Theriot is the best option right now for SS, but most of us were hoping for some sort of upgrade on offense.

Yes but giving Theriot overall season numbers, SS isn't the place to look for upgrades. SS isn't a hole I've said it a million times

 

Yes, SS could be upgraded. Theriot's .710 OPS isn't that great. That could definitely be upgraded. I'm just saying he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

Tell me, why do you and everyone worship the almighty OPS? OBP is much more important.

I don't know if it's much more important in general, but it is pretty stupid to bash a guy because of a low OPS when he's clearly not a power hitter. Most players don't hit for power, those who do should be looked at in a positive way, rather than those who don't being looked at in a negative way.

 

power isn't an either/or type of thing, all players have power to different degrees, just as all players have on base ability to different degrees.

 

the fact that theriot's power is very small is most definitely a detriment to the team. you can say that "most players don't hit for power," but the fact remains that, of the 28 mlb shortstops with enough ab's to qualify for the batting title, ryan theriot is 26th in isop.

 

ryan theriot is bad at hitting for power even when compared only to his contemporaries who, like him, play the position of which least power is expected.

[Sammy Sofa]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

But you're proposing someting that won't happen.

 

Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you.

 

As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

 

So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter?

As far as who IS on the Cubs.

Theriot is the best option and there is no real upgrade previously available on the market.

Also, Mods can you split this thread?

 

Another hypothetical question...let's say Cuban buys the team and ARod opts out and miracle of miracles, the Cubs sign him. He's older and bigger than when he last played it, but would you want Theriot playing SS over him?

 

I'm just trying to see how far you're willing to go with this.

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

[Mizzou]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

If he's well below average at hitting for power, then he's also well above average at getting on base, not slightly above average. He's top ten in OBP among shortstops, and bottom ten in SLG.

[E.J.]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

What do you think of Juan Pierre as a player?

[Skyballer]

I'd be almost certain that he is above average for most statistics for a SS. Where can I find those comparisons to league average?

 

.273/.327/.399/.726 is the average line for ALL shortstops, including backups, so those numbers are going to be down a bit from the average starting SS.

 

Theriot is at .282/.349/.370/.719

 

So yes his OBP is probably a little above average for a starting SS, but his power is definitely lower. All in all, he's not a terrible option with the numbers he's put up this year.

Power is very over rated, especially for a number 2 hitter.

 

Power is pretty much never overrated.

 

Agreed. MurtonFan seems to have the very Dusty-esque opinion that a #2 hitter HAS to be a speedy guy above anything else.

 

MurtonFan, let's make up a crazy hypothetical situation where the Cubs got Pujols and ARod and still have Ramirez, Soriano and Lee. Pujols, Rammy and ARod would somehow fill the the 3-5 slots in the lineup. Sori is batting leadoff...would you rather bat Lee or Theriot at #2?

irrelevant, Theriot is doing is job as a shortstop, he is fine, and above average.

My argument deals with whether Theriot needs to be replaced at short, not whether Lee needs to bat second.

 

You're the one that said that power is overrated in the #2 spot as an argument that seemingly Theriot is the best and only choice for the Cubs in that spot.

But you're proposing someting that won't happen.

 

Yes, that's what we call a "hypothetical question," which is what I said I was asking you.

 

As far as who should bat Second it should be Theriot because the number 2 hitter has to be patient, bunt and move the runner over, all of which Theriot does well.

 

So to clarify, are you saying that no matter who is on the Cubs, Theriot should be the #2 batter?

As far as who IS on the Cubs.

Theriot is the best option and there is no real upgrade previously available on the market.

Also, Mods can you split this thread?

 

Another hypothetical question...let's say Cuban buys the team and ARod opts out and miracle of miracles, the Cubs sign him. He's older and bigger than when he last played it, but would you want Theriot playing SS over him?

 

I'm just trying to see how far you're willing to go with this.

Do you take me for an idiot, sorry but come on i'm an intelligent person, of course I want A-Rod.

[Drew Doughty]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

What do you think of Juan Pierre as a player?

show me stats and i'll tell you.

[Drew Doughty]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

If he's well below average at hitting for power, then he's also well above average at getting on base, not slightly above average. He's top ten in OBP among shortstops, and bottom ten in SLG.

 

i'm looking at averages for his position, not his rankings among his contemporaries. his obp is .016 above average, his SLG is .045 below average.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Drew Doughty

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

[E.J.]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

[Drew Doughty]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

that is honestly one of the worst arguments i've ever heard. theriot has 4 stolen bases in close and late situations (0 CS), Reyes has 3 (2 CS). theriot is better, but the difference is pretty much negligible.

[E.J.]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

 

You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time?

 

Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes?