Jacque Jones' OBP and SLG

[CubColtPacer]

"But I'd argue the Soriano signing response was mostly positive. There were a few that were 100% against, but a heck of a lot more that were 100% for it, and even more who were more or less excited about the acquisition, if only fearful of the financial impact.

 

And of course, most everybody responded happily when Dusty was let go and Neifi was traded. The Greg Maddux signing was widely accepted as very good for the team, even if people like myself pointed out it was an awful lot of money for a more or less average pitcher. And the Todd Walker signing was, I believe, roundly praised as a smart, affordable price to pay for a nice piece to add to the team. "

 

Using these few examples proves my point. So many posters have an opinion, but include a disclaimer. We all loved Soriano, but we didn't like the contract. If Soriano succeeds, we were right. If Soriano fails, we were right because Hendry spent too much. People liked getting rid of Dusty, but Piniella wasn't the fan's choice. If the team succeeds, we were right about Dusty. If they fail, we were right because we wanted Girardi. My point is that Hendry can't play both sides of the fence. If he makes a move, it was for the wrong player, it cost too much in trade, or the contract was too expensive. Would this team be better with some of the trade proposals and free agent signings mentioned at NSBB? I'm sure many posters would answer affirmatively, but I'm not so sure. Right now there's posters suggesting trading a ton of promising young players for Abreu, who looks like he has aged poorly.

 

I actually had a post earlier today that was going to compare what Hendry did this past offseason and what the board would have done with the money, but it disappeared before it was finished, and I didn't want to repeat the whole thing. Needless to say, this team is a lot better today with Derosa instead of Giles or Durham, Soriano instead of Drew, Marquis and Lilly instead of Schmidt, Westbrook, or Padilla. The only one that the board was completely right on was Blanco. At the same time, if this team still doesn't win with that great offseason that just says how horrible the team was before, which might get Hendry fired anyway.

[daske17]

http://lolcats2.com/full/kittensaves.jpg

 

Some people blame Hendry, others give him the benefit of the doubt. Can't we all get along?

[Tracer Bullet]

don't take this wrong. I want Hendry gone as bad as anyone. but let's face it, his harshest critics screamed for two of the players mentioned above (Drew and Abreu), and another who is just barely non-qualified, Brian Giles.

 

so when you go thinking Hendry's job is easy and he's just a massive baboon, look yourself in the mirror and admit many of the terrible transaction suggestions you've suggested over the years and where the Cubs would be had they made the moves often demanded here.

 

I was never a big fan of Abreu, but I wanted Drew pretty bad. And Drew's power is nowhere to be found, but his OBP is still 100 points higher than his AVG (and that .350 OBP would be an improvement for our OF); Abreu's OBP is not good, but it's also 80 or so points higher than his AVG - these guys haven't lost their plate discipline, which is something our team sorely lacks.

 

But Abreu and Drew also went from the NL to the ALE, which is a huge difference in terms of talent. Abreu got the short end of the stick b/c some of the worst pitchers in the ALE are on his team. But they're facing much better talent than Jones is. So to think Drew or Abreu wouldn't be much better facing the Cards, Pirates, Reds, etc than pitchers in the AL isn't really fair. They might be just as bad on the Cubs as they are in the ALE, but the difference in talent in the leagues is fairly widely accepted, so I think that's a variable you're overlooking.

 

I'd love to trade for Drew (Abreu's a year and a half older, so I'm less interested in him). If he could play CF at all, that .391 career OBP would be a thing of beauty on this team.

 

another conflation of the argument. if you are going to compare the pitching talent one faces, you must remain consistent. neither player was in the NL central, yet those are the teams you use to excuse these players poor performances. Abreu got a break, then what explains Drew? Abreu got a break, but the pitching in the NL East last year was a helluva lot better than the AL East pitching this year.

 

and btw, 13-15M a year for a slightly better than league average OBP (if that) and little more is a terrible idea, which gets back to my original point, we'd be more screwed had the Cubs acquired some of the love children that were pined for on this board.

 

How am I not remaining consistent? My argument was that if Drew or Abreu were Cubs, their stats would not be as bad as they are this year, at least in part b/c they would be facing the pitching in the NLC rather than the ALE. It doesn't matter what division they were in last year, it's based on who they would face this year if the Cubs had signed them. Your argument based on what we'd be getting for 13-15M simply ignores the fact that the NL pitching is worse than the AL pitching, especially the NLC v the ALE. Would Drew have a .360 OBP if he were facing the NLC this year? Possibly, but I think highly doubtful. I don't think you can just assume he would have performed the same if the Cubs had signed him.

[Tracer Bullet]

don't take this wrong. I want Hendry gone as bad as anyone. but let's face it, his harshest critics screamed for two of the players mentioned above (Drew and Abreu), and another who is just barely non-qualified, Brian Giles.

 

so when you go thinking Hendry's job is easy and he's just a massive baboon, look yourself in the mirror and admit many of the terrible transaction suggestions you've suggested over the years and where the Cubs would be had they made the moves often demanded here.

 

I was never a big fan of Abreu, but I wanted Drew pretty bad. And Drew's power is nowhere to be found, but his OBP is still 100 points higher than his AVG (and that .350 OBP would be an improvement for our OF); Abreu's OBP is not good, but it's also 80 or so points higher than his AVG - these guys haven't lost their plate discipline, which is something our team sorely lacks.

 

But Abreu and Drew also went from the NL to the ALE, which is a huge difference in terms of talent. Abreu got the short end of the stick b/c some of the worst pitchers in the ALE are on his team. But they're facing much better talent than Jones is. So to think Drew or Abreu wouldn't be much better facing the Cards, Pirates, Reds, etc than pitchers in the AL isn't really fair. They might be just as bad on the Cubs as they are in the ALE, but the difference in talent in the leagues is fairly widely accepted, so I think that's a variable you're overlooking.

 

I'd love to trade for Drew (Abreu's a year and a half older, so I'm less interested in him). If he could play CF at all, that .391 career OBP would be a thing of beauty on this team.

 

another conflation of the argument. if you are going to compare the pitching talent one faces, you must remain consistent. neither player was in the NL central, yet those are the teams you use to excuse these players poor performances. Abreu got a break, then what explains Drew? Abreu got a break, but the pitching in the NL East last year was a helluva lot better than the AL East pitching this year.

 

and btw, 13-15M a year for a slightly better than league average OBP (if that) and little more is a terrible idea, which gets back to my original point, we'd be more screwed had the Cubs acquired some of the love children that were pined for on this board.

 

I like how you trash everyone's arguments by throwing around words like "conflation", then use absolutely terrible logic to support your on arguments (pitching in the NL East is worse this year than last year...please), and then wrap it all up with a completely unsupportable statement that we'd be "more screwed", whatever the hell that is. All while calling a mod "disingenuous" for no particular reason.

 

You win the 1st Annual Dingleberry Award for Alienating Everyone and Pissing Them Off.

 

the other poster posited that the 2007 AL East is harder to hit in than the 2006 NL East. I argued it's not. it was an accurate statement.

 

I believe having a $13-15M/year player would be a larger strain on the Cubs organization than a $5M, slightly less productive player . how that is unsupportable...no wait, completely unsupportable...is beyond me.

 

what award do you win for your failure to read, failure to comprehend, ignorance of what logic is, and blatant attack topped off with sucking up to a mod?

 

The other poster posited no such thing. You misread the other poster's argument. The argument is that Jones (facing the Cards, Pirates, Astros, etc) is facing easier pitching than Abreu and Drew (in the ALE). I never referenced the NLE.

Edited May 29, 2007 by yanrslatr

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don't take this wrong. I want Hendry gone as bad as anyone. but let's face it, his harshest critics screamed for two of the players mentioned above (Drew and Abreu), and another who is just barely non-qualified, Brian Giles.

 

so when you go thinking Hendry's job is easy and he's just a massive baboon, look yourself in the mirror and admit many of the terrible transaction suggestions you've suggested over the years and where the Cubs would be had they made the moves often demanded here.

 

I was never a big fan of Abreu, but I wanted Drew pretty bad. And Drew's power is nowhere to be found, but his OBP is still 100 points higher than his AVG (and that .350 OBP would be an improvement for our OF); Abreu's OBP is not good, but it's also 80 or so points higher than his AVG - these guys haven't lost their plate discipline, which is something our team sorely lacks.

 

But Abreu and Drew also went from the NL to the ALE, which is a huge difference in terms of talent. Abreu got the short end of the stick b/c some of the worst pitchers in the ALE are on his team. But they're facing much better talent than Jones is. So to think Drew or Abreu wouldn't be much better facing the Cards, Pirates, Reds, etc than pitchers in the AL isn't really fair. They might be just as bad on the Cubs as they are in the ALE, but the difference in talent in the leagues is fairly widely accepted, so I think that's a variable you're overlooking.

 

I'd love to trade for Drew (Abreu's a year and a half older, so I'm less interested in him). If he could play CF at all, that .391 career OBP would be a thing of beauty on this team.

 

incidentally, I challenge the notion that Abreu has had to face tougher pitching than Jacque this year. the Cubs have had bad luck avoiding teams best starting pitching, the Yankees have had tremendous luck. admittedly, Boston has had bad luck.

 

Pitchers JJ has more than 3 ABs against: Arroyo (7), Harang (5), Lohse (6), Sheets (4), Vargas (4), Lieber (4), Snell (5), Wainwright (4). There's 1 really good pitcher, a couple having good years, and some real crap there.

 

Abreu: Dice K (6), Schilling (7), Tavarez (4), Wakefield (4), Contreras (4), Garland (4), Escobar (4), Ponson (4), Batista (5), O'Flaherty (5), Washburn (7), Kazmir (6), Tejeda (6), Mike Wood (5). There's some junk there too, but Dice K, Schilling, Garland, Kazmir? Even Washburn has a 3.22 ERA and 1.12 WHIP.

 

Once you get past Sheets and Snell, it starts to fall apart for the "JJ's faced tougher pitching" side, doesn't it? The 3 AB cutoff was pretty random, but I'm not going to list every pitcher they've faced this year. But wouldn't you rather face the guys in the first list? I would.

[JGalt73]

BP keeps a stat on the quality of pitchers faced by every player. This is the aggregate of what the pitchers that have been faced have given up AVG/OBP/SLG.

 

J.D. Drew BOS 185 PA .258/.344/.401

Bobby Abreu NYA 227 PA .244/.329/.381

Jacque Jones CHN 170 PA .246/.328/.384

 

J.D. Drew has faced the "easiest" pitching (how often does he play the NYY...)

[frostwyrm]

 

But I'd argue the Soriano signing response was mostly positive. There were a few that were 100% against, but a heck of a lot more that were 100% for it, and even more who were more or less excited about the acquisition, if only fearful of the financial impact.

 

 

True. At the time I found it odd that so few here were dead set against the Soriano signing, and odd that even fewer were in favor of a rebuilding year. These still seem like sensible positions to me, would've expected more support for them.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

But I'd argue the Soriano signing response was mostly positive. There were a few that were 100% against, but a heck of a lot more that were 100% for it, and even more who were more or less excited about the acquisition, if only fearful of the financial impact.

 

 

True. At the time I found it odd that so few here were dead set against the Soriano signing, and odd that even fewer were in favor of a rebuilding year. These still seem like sensible positions to me, would've expected more support for them.

 

I was begrudginly accepting of the Soriano deal, mostly because they were so desperate for an extra bat and it appeared quite obvious they were raising payroll. I would also add that I'm confident Wilken will turn up a couple good young cheap bats in the next couple years, so when Soriano is really a waste, it'll be offset by those guys.

 

And I'm still not in favor of a complete rebuilding. First, I think it'll be impossible. This isn't a team with 37 year olds like Kevin Tapani leading the way. The core of the club is still late 20's to early 30's. And I think this team could be in for a quick turn around with a solid GM.

[Tracer Bullet]

 

But I'd argue the Soriano signing response was mostly positive. There were a few that were 100% against, but a heck of a lot more that were 100% for it, and even more who were more or less excited about the acquisition, if only fearful of the financial impact.

 

 

True. At the time I found it odd that so few here were dead set against the Soriano signing, and odd that even fewer were in favor of a rebuilding year. These still seem like sensible positions to me, would've expected more support for them.

 

I was begrudginly accepting of the Soriano deal, mostly because they were so desperate for an extra bat and it appeared quite obvious they were raising payroll. I would also add that I'm confident Wilken will turn up a couple good young cheap bats in the next couple years, so when Soriano is really a waste, it'll be offset by those guys.

 

And I'm still not in favor of a complete rebuilding. First, I think it'll be impossible. This isn't a team with 37 year olds like Kevin Tapani leading the way. The core of the club is still late 20's to early 30's. And I think this team could be in for a quick turn around with a solid GM.

 

I agree - no complete rebuilding. But we should accept that we're not a WS contender and play for next year.

[Tracer Bullet]

BP keeps a stat on the quality of pitchers faced by every player. This is the aggregate of what the pitchers that have been faced have given up AVG/OBP/SLG.

 

J.D. Drew BOS 185 PA .258/.344/.401

Bobby Abreu NYA 227 PA .244/.329/.381

Jacque Jones CHN 170 PA .246/.328/.384

 

J.D. Drew has faced the "easiest" pitching (how often does he play the NYY...)

 

I think that stat would work if you're comparing 2 guys in the same league, but the pitchers in the AL are also facing better offensive players. So, especially for the less than great pitchers, their numbers will be skewed by the quality of the offenses they're facing.

[VVMattVV]

 

But I'd argue the Soriano signing response was mostly positive. There were a few that were 100% against, but a heck of a lot more that were 100% for it, and even more who were more or less excited about the acquisition, if only fearful of the financial impact.

 

 

True. At the time I found it odd that so few here were dead set against the Soriano signing, and odd that even fewer were in favor of a rebuilding year. These still seem like sensible positions to me, would've expected more support for them.

 

I was begrudginly accepting of the Soriano deal, mostly because they were so desperate for an extra bat and it appeared quite obvious they were raising payroll. I would also add that I'm confident Wilken will turn up a couple good young cheap bats in the next couple years, so when Soriano is really a waste, it'll be offset by those guys.

 

And I'm still not in favor of a complete rebuilding. First, I think it'll be impossible. This isn't a team with 37 year olds like Kevin Tapani leading the way. The core of the club is still late 20's to early 30's. And I think this team could be in for a quick turn around with a solid GM.

 

I agree - no complete rebuilding. But we should accept that we're not a WS contender and play for next year.

 

I never understood the "World Series" contender line. If last year proved anything, if you make it to the playoffs, anything can happen.

[jersey cubs fan]

I never understood the "World Series" contender line. If last year proved anything, if you make it to the playoffs, anything can happen.

 

Anything can happen, but odds are it won't. The best teams usually win. What last year was was an unprecedented situation. The goal in baseball should be to create the best team possible, that means a team capable of 95-100 wins, because those are the teams that usually win it all. You don't give yourself much of a chance if you'd just trying to contend within a divison, no matter how weak.